The concept of the muscle car is much older than that, even if you stick to the big engine in intermediate car definition. You have the '49 Olds 88 with the Rocket engine, and I'm sure there many older examples. DeLorean's contribution was mainly marketing.
I would feel more or less offended if people use the term 'muscle car' for a Riviera or Toronado... it means it is a small(er) car, by the size of an Opel Manta :laugh:
The '49 Olds was still a full sized car. I will concede that as was the case with the Buick Super and Roadmaster, Olds had a slightly larger chassis for it's luxobarge - the 98; but the "Rocket 88" was still a full sized car and therefore does not qualify as a muscle car. It was DeLorean who did battle with GM top management to allow him to stuff the 389" V8 into the Tempest, thus creating the GTO.
ou: The OP of this thread who hasn't logged on since 8-08-10, must have set this poll up to run in perpetuity. It needs to be killed off. :blast:
front wheel drive = :moonu:. now rip one of those 425's or 455's out and install in a cutlass, then you are talking.
The first Toronados could be considered a big muscle car for sure. Just as any SJ Duesenberg is.:laugh:
I spent quite a bit of time considering your comment. I like the way that you think. The Riv is not in the same price league as the Dusey, (I think a Duesenberg chassis in 1928 cost more then a Riviera in 1966, but the idea is the same). If you look closely at the early Toronados, The styling is a tribute to the Cord. I do not believe that it was an accident.
Yes, but this was the Cord of Oldsmobile's inspiration. The 810 -812. (My late Father's '37 812 Beverly Sedan.)
Here is a Duesey I got to check out last week. My wife said she would get it for me as it is going to be for sale by the 80 year old owner. But I don't want a limo. It's a '29 that was originally owned by one of the evil Bankers- Andrew Mellon.
I thought of saying; Cord is to Toronado, as Duesenberg is to Riviera. But this being a thread about Olds on a Buick board, I decided to change it up a bit. I guess I'm saying, the differences between the two pairs cousins are relative. I'm a big fan of Auburn Cord and Duesenberg. Also a big fan of Buick and Oldsmobile (Dad bought the Buick in 1970 and, I had an Oldsmobile for 26 years). Having a Cord or a Duesy would be cool. But, I'm not unhappy "setlling" for Olds and Buick!! I intended to post an 810 or 812. But, blue is my favorite color so, that's why I went with the blue L-29. The Cord sedans are the best looking sedans ever made! Those Duesies are so cool!!
Well ... Then the 67-69 GS400s aren't muscle cars b/c the "big" engine was the 430 ... ... And if they are, and the tornado is, then so should be my Sporty - mid sized platform and from the firewall forward its identical to the 68 GS 400
I hate to get into a thread this old and pointless, but the GS 400 does qualify. Big engine intended for the full size car does not mean the biggest engine that the manufacturer offered. GM wouldn't let the companies that it owned put anything bigger than a 400 in the mid size cars till 1970. That's why the nailhead went from being a 401 to being called a 400 in 1965. They would have probably gladly put the 425 in the old 65 Skylark, but GM said no. I think that it's also been established that the Toronado isn't a muscle car. Muscular for sure, but cars of it's size were the place they got the engine for the muscle cars. Now... the secret is to not worry about a label that someone came up with. That was marketing then, and even bigger dollar marketing today when pricing the old cars. Muscle car, street rod, hot rod, whatever. It's just a name that someone came up with. All that matters is that it's a car and you like it the way it is. If you worry about what label fits the car, you are not properly enjoying the car for the car. You are worried about what someone else is going to think of the car.
Muscle car! But i may be bias because i owned a 69 w-30 toronado and i did a few runs in it and nobody ever beat me...now i own a 68 riviera that i threw a 455 in it and still aint lost to nobody yet...If a new body charger is considered a muscle car then a toronado and a riviera is also...i have beat every charger in a race that had a hemi in it but even i know a srt charger will smoke me and that is considered a muscle car..i think a muscle car should go by the lines of the car....
