Pulled 'em out this afternoon. Cam looks good, but truthfully barely broken in, which I'm not really complaining about- 20 minutes of break-in was done, and then an hour drive to storage last winter. I just never saw a cam right after break in before is all. Lifters look good, too of course, all are spinning away like good little lifters- will post findings on what's making the tick and what makes it go away. Surgery on the lifters is schecduled for after work tomorrow
Chris, What are you going to use to clean your lifters. Also are you going to lube them in any way while your in the re-assembly phase. Just asking as I have a new set to do sometime in the future.
Well, I am going to lube them again for peace of mind. Haven't decided how to clean them. WD-40 is a good cleaner and relatively harmless. I need to lay my hands on some lint-free cloths or heavy duty paper toweling. We have some at work, I'm gonna swipe one and do some lint testing I think
Hi Guys, Chris....brake cleaner works EXCELLENT FOR ME and requires no wiping down for possible re-contamination with lint or such!:TU: Be sure and have a squirt can with new, clean oil to lube them with during reassembly! Hope this helps....
NO WIPING!! p Dip-Dip, Blow Dry, Squirt-Squirt, Reassemble. Rubber gloves - clean table or bench. No rags - no paper towels. Nothing left behind.
I used brake cleaner too. Used latex gloves. I coated parts with clean oil before reassembly. I found crap in my new Crane lifters.
Chris... I'm gonna have to look back at yer old posts to see whats goin on with the tick ya got. Is it a new cam with a new set of lifters and now theres a tick? Might be an upper valve train problem..lemme read yer other posts first..fish
Ok I give up I couldnt find yer tick posts ..ya got too many posts man..lol....lemme know whats up with the tick ..fish
Last summer I starved the engine for oil and wiped out a main bearing- right down to the jacket. Two scratches on the crank- one on a main, one on a rod. Polished them out, and plastigauged all rod and main journals with new bearings- clearances OK. Engine saw daily use on this rebuild since '99, no problems I had my new cam, lifters, timing cover, and heads in-hand already, so I put them in. I also put on my roller rockers are pre-loaded them. The heads are brand-new TA Stage 1 aluminum pieces- that reminds me, I need to get some Stage 1 emblems- I'm going to put them on the valve covers :TU: . Maybe there is a problem with the passenge head itself, I haven't ruled that out. I didn't have a straight edge long enough to go across the valve stems, but they all looked the same height with the rockers off. Start it up, sounds great, except for a little tick on both sides. Well, that's OK..it goes away except for a single tick on the passenger side. i said "whatever" and put the car away. It was November. I have pictures of the car in the snow with me working on the engine inside the garage No tick except for that one lifter now. I removed the roller rockers and installed the stock rockers- same thing, no change. I require one oversized (factory oversize) lifter on the same side, which I located and installed. I make 25 psi at 650 rpm (in drive at a stop light), hot- no oil pressure issues I can see in that scenario. I use 10w30 full synthetic yes it is definitetly a lifter tick type sound trust me on that So, since Buick lifters are suspect for the past few years, I must now inspect the lifters to either 1) correct the problem or 2) eliminate the lifters as the cause of the sound I am going to look at a few in a couple of minutes. To be on the safe side, I'm also getting new pushrods as insurance I think- one looked slightly flat on the end. I'll get new pushrods now, while the engine's already open, it only makes sense
Chris, your roller rockers are adjustable, right? If they were all adjusted to specs there wouldn't be any ticks. From reading what happened you adjusted them only once upon installation. If thats true you may have only had to readjust the one valve. If the adjustment is so large that the geometry goes wrong, only then do you have to find out what caused the slop in the valve train. It might be the slightly flat pushrod you mentioned had seated itself or just a misadjusted valve. You should always readjust the valves after cam break in. Too late now but isolating the tick is easy. Just run the engine with the valve cover off and put pressure with your thumb on the valve side of the rocker. When the tick quiets, you found it. It doesn't sound like a lifter problem to me.
A couple of thoughts for you to consider here Chris. You have aluminum heads now.. so if you adjusted the rockers to say.. 1/2 turn past zero lash with the engine cold, those pop can heads do swell up.. and that reduces lifer preload.. To give you an example of how much.. on the stand, when I build an aluminum headed motor, with a solid cam, and let's say I want .022 to .024 lash with the motor warm, I will set the rockers to .012 lash cold. When I check and set them after cam break in, I rarely have to adjust them much, and they typically may be loose.. I dont believe camshaft wear-in is the issue.. its from the heads swelling. I can say this, because I have performed this procedure with already broken in camshafts/lifter sets. I have also used this proceedure successfully on alumium head, roller cam motors.. and they don't "break in", like flat tappet stuff does. The heads do swell up that much, so don't let that fool you. That being said, I have had motors, that just will not be completely quiet, and I have had them that will be quiet, but won't rev to their full potential with a hyd cam and particular lifters.. Too much preload and they will be quite but may not rev, not enough and they Rev and but tick at idle.. And I have had cams that won't rev regardless of what lifters are on it, how good the geometry is, and what the preload is.. our motors here are very sensative to ramp speeds on these cams. Different brands of lifters, and even different batches of the same lifter act differently, to even further muddy the waters. Been a big issue, and I have refined my cam selections, as well as lifter choices, and pre-load settings to achieve what I need to with a given build. I just finished up a level 1 iron motor, same lifters that you have there (Delphi from TA) and with good tip heights on the iron heads, and .035 preload, this thing will rev to the moon, and yet is quiet as a mouse, even thru repro STG 1 valve covers. In engine building these days, I consider this the "Holy Grail". It's a goal to aspire to, making the stuff go round and round and live is typically easy enough, but getting it to be quiet, to rev, and to perform like you want it to, is much more tricky. I have taken a brand new motor apart, after putting it in the car, to change the cam, to make it quiet. I have had them be quiet on the dyno, and then develop noise, or just have it at particular rpms... it's enough to drive you nuts, and I have spent many, many hours and thousands of dollars, chasing this deal around.. I also have been tracking ramp rates, so that I can attempt to make an educated quess in predicting exactly when there will be issues, with given combinations, valve spring pressures, ect.. What your into there can be very maddening.. or it could be as simple as dirt in a lifter, or just not enough pre-load when the engine is warm.. if it quiet at startup, but develops the noise after it warms up fully, I would just try another 1/4 turn down on the preload. It is very possible that you may have to increase your preload a bit, and then hopefully it will rpm ok too... Don't be afraid to go a 3/4 to a full turn on those rollers, past zero lash, with the engine cold. As I understand it, TA also now has the new Johnson Hydraulics lifters in, although I have not used a set yet. That lifter was far and away the best for these issues, in the past. I build many quiet motors that would easily go to 6000 rpm and beyond with them, before we went into what I affectionately refer to as "hydraulic cam hell", when Johnson was going out of business, and selling all the "seconds".. Apparently there is a new outfit now making this lifter, and I hope that it is as good as the old JH ones, it will make all our lives much easier. And its not just our Buicks that have these issues.. I asked one of my machinists here the other day, who is a well respected builder on the NHRA Divisional/National event scene, what he tells customers who want a performance hydraulic cam in any number of different brands of motors.. His Answer? Dont expect it to be quiet
Thanks, Jim The cam is a TA 290-94H, if that matters. I do need to degree it still. I'm not sure if I'm releived or overwhelmed about chasing this sound now if you have chased them, too :laugh: The engine makes the tick (somewhere in the region of the #4 and #6) when cold, hot, any rpm I've held it at I suppose after I inspect the lifters, I'll hold a hammer handle on each rocker as it runs and press down, and listen for a change Lots to consider, with the aluminum heads. I had no idea they would swell so much. Any head gasket issues to worry about? I use fel-pro composite gaskets and head studs instead of bolts The engine has always revved freely and smoothly, and the rpms drop off like I'd expect a smaller engine to.
I might re-torque the heads, I know if you have an AC car that can be a pain.. other than that you should be ok.. JW
If TA has a set of Delphi's left (or possibly Eaton's) and a person needed a set in the near future, I would sure pick up a set. >>....."hydraulic cam hell", when Johnson was going out of business........>> They were shuttered due to IRS issues, then bought by Hylift and reopened. They were subsequently acquired by Topline and are now known as Topline-Hylift-Johnson. Suffice to say that QC is not what it was when they were Johnson. There are also Stanadyne lifters floating around which I feel (in my opinion) are not as good as others (they were at one time made in Mexico and/or Brazil).
Jim- no A/C, so no big deal. I'll do 'em one at a time Andy- you're right, my thinking on this may be wrong. I'm still thinking as if things were stock, for one thing Scott- pretty sure mine are Stanadyne
Chris... Have you run it with the valve covers off? This will help see if you are getting oil to the rocker boxes. There is a good chance alot of the bearing you wiped out is still hanging out in the galleys,restricting oil flow. I reckon you already checked the pushrods to see if theyre blocked...hope it helps...fish
