I was doing some math on Stg 2 heads. I'm trying to decide between SE's and TE's. I got an assembled price of $2395.00 for SE's and $2495.00 for TE's. Then I began looking into the cost of assembling myself. The catalog shows SE castings for $1195.00 and TE castings for $1395.00 with guides and seats installed with no competition valve job. Then I checked prices of all the parts needed to assemble. TE castings 1395.00 valves(set) 225.00 seals 20.00 308s cam kit 429.00 keepers inc. w/kit springs inc. w/kit retainers inc. w/kit __________________ $2069.00 vs. $2495.00 OR TE castings 1395.00 valves 225.00 keepers 23.00 seals 20.00 retainers 55.00 springs 130.00 ___________________ $1848.00 vs. $2495.00 Now I know this does not include the valve job or any porting, but I think the assembled price only includes a valve job. I'm not certain but I don' t remember a valve job being expensive. Am I missing something or is the self assembly the obvious way to go?
If you have the necessary tools to check spring height, pressures, etc. then assembling the heads yourself would be more economical. If you plan on doing several sets of heads now and down the road, it would make sense to purchase the tools and do it yourself. At the machine shop I did heads at, they charge $3.00 per seat to cut. That was with a tri-blade cutter, so it did all 3 angles at once! Scott
There is a couple of considerations you may have missed here.. First off, TE heads require a SP-2 manifold... they are stage 3 heads (with raised intake port locations) but without the spread valve centerlines.. Only the SE heads will allow for the use of a stock type manifold, or any of the popular aftermarket offerings. And if you got the prices from TA, it is more than just a valve job.. I do believe they do a little cleanup work along with the valve job, to get good flow #'s.. I don't work for TA, so I could be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that is what Mike told me. If your building something fast, then TE heads are the way to go.. but forget budget... I have a complete set here, ready to go on the engine, with a full compliment of port work done to them, to unlock their real potential.. Add $1000 to your highest prices listed...:eek2: But these are heavy duty go-fast pieces.. and that is what stuff like this costs. If your looking for a good alternative to rebuilding and then porting the snot out of iron stuff, with minimal changover costs, then the SE's are the way to go. You would be mistaken to think you can just take them out of the box, cut some seats, and toss a bunch of parts at them... takes a bit more work than that... but still a good alternative to iron heads, all things considered. JW
Me do it vs. They do it? If your looking for some advice, let TA do the whole job on the heads. They know the requirements of their heads, camshafts, and the whole shebang. They should know the best valves, valvejob etc.. to suit your combo. They want their products to perform well, so you can rest assured the job will be done right. Let the pros do what they do best. It WILL be money well spent.
TA's price does NOT include any bowl work when ordering assembled. Unless this has changed since last week, it's an additional 500.00 to do bowl work. This was the case on the heads in the Car Craft article. These were worked over by TA for extra cash. (as per info from TA's Dave) As far as TA knowing their products for best performance? Well I'll leave that one for now. Most hardcore Buick racers I've talked to say to use 11/32 stem valves for flow advantage and more valve choice. TA doesn't carry these valves, but will set the guides up for you at 11/32. What do I know? Nobody's perfect, therefore I am nobody... o No:
I realize that the SE and TE are the same head with different port height. They both take the same valve train. One takes a different intake. There is only one valve spring, keeper, retainer,etc. for this cam. It all comes in a kit anyway. They both take the same rocker system. I guess I am trying to figure out which head will be best for my combination. (494" stroker, 308s cam, Dominator). How much "bowl work", "clean up", or full blown porting is neccessary to get the flow numbers that is claimed in the catalog and every article written on these heads? Do these heads have to be ported out of the box and if so how much?
Sooooooo......the price list in CC's article should have read $2,750.00 for the assembled Stage-2 heads? If this is true, then TA should make that correction to the CC article on TA's website. :gt:
And once that is settled, don't forget to add the cost of the roller rockers, stud kits, valve covers, Stage-2 headers, Jet-Hot coating (if you want the headers to last), gaskets, shipping, etc.. :ball: In fairness though, I guess some of the stuff listed above would apply to any stout street/strip Stage-1 or Stage-2 build-up . But, when you start to add up all the small stuff, it's adds up pretty fast.
The best head for your combination would be the TE head with the LARGER intake valves. This head can easily flow 350 cfm with phenominal lower lift numbers. The heads come with the valve seats for the smaller valves, all the ones I have done, I've put in the larger intake seats and gone to the 2.25 inch intake valve. I have done several sets of TE heads now. Jim Burek P.A.E. ENTERPRISES
Does anybody have any recommendations SE's vs. TE's? SE's with some port work or TE's with simple clean up? To me it's a toss up. I don't have enough first hand knowledge of either head other than what I read. So any experience that you guys have would be beneficial.
Jim You must have been typing at the same time that I was. Thanks for the input. It is appreciated. I know that some of the guys on this page were running easy 10's with SE's, but I wasn't sure of how much work they put into them to get there. If I start with TE's with larger valves, do I need to get to 340-350cfm for my combo?
TE head numbers This may help a bit... No, you don't have to have 350 cfm with your combo.. but you know the old saying, "speed costs, how fast do you want to go?" For your info, I can offer this up. We did a rather extensive R&D program with the TE heads, for an upcoming project. I build a customer a tube frame GS, and he really wants to get it into the 8's.. So, with that, and a good budget, in mind, we worked this set of heads to be as good as we could get them to be. Like Jim B, we started with 2.25" intakes, with a 1.755 exhaust. With just some mild cleanup, we flowed them with the big valves.. they certainly could be somewhat better (probably 20 cfm across the board) with more portwork and the big valves, but we went another direction with them, and got some interesting results. I will only say that the intake is no longer 2.25"... gotta keep some secrets ya' know..:Brow: With just the mild cleanup, they flowed like this.. valve lift .........................................intake.......................Exhaust .100................................................. 77 ............................61 .200 ................................................ 151.......................... 117 .300 ................................................ 206........................... 155 .400 ................................................ 256 .......................... 203 .500 ................................................ 295 ........................... 227 .600 ................................................ 305 ........................... 239 .700 ................................................ 310 ........................... 247 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, if we were going to stay with the 2.25 valves, we could have ported them a bunch, and got some real nice .500 -700 numbers But ....... getting the heads to flow better all the way across the valve lift range will show greater power numbers, due to the engine ingesting more air, per a given rpm range. What that means is this: Big valves flow well at the big lift numbers, but not so well at the lower numbers (.200-.400). The problem is that the big valve is shrouded by the chamber wall more, and you can only unshroud them so much.. before you run out of bore diameter. So if you can run a smaller valve, but still get the big lift numbers of the bigger valve, and enjoy the higher low lift numbers that the small valve will yeild... then you have your cake, and can eat it too!:laugh: Ok, same heads, 60 man hours later, with numerous different intake sizes, and many many times on and off the flow bench... (not to mention a particular lightness in my wallet :eek2: ) Our custom valve size heads: still with 1.755 exhausts, but fully ported, with lots of chamber work.. valve lift..........................................Intake....................... Exhaust .100 ............................................. 79 ............................ 64 .200 .............................................. 170 .......................... 127 .300 .............................................. 242 .......................... 186 .400 .............................................. 298 .......................... 229 .500 .............................................. 338 .......................... 258 .600 .............................................. 345 .......................... 274 .700 .............................................. 351 .......................... 283 ____________________________________________________ That is what these heads can do, they are better than the stage 3 and 4"s I have seen, in the low and mid lift numbers anyway. To me, these are the heads to have.. Anyone who cares to take the time and effort, should be able to produce numbers like these. I am still eating my cake, even if it was frosted in gold.. :shock: Advice? --- go with the TE's get a little work done, and start with the big valves... 310 cfm is nothing to sneeze at, and considering your cam, it will work well. These heads are going on a 494, 13-1, with a BIG roller cam.. Good luck, I hope this helps.. JW
The thing that I don't get is why do they put 320cfm in the ad in the catalog or on the web page if you have to do so much porting to get there? I'm trying to figure out how much flow do they have out of the box.
Reynold: I think I was told the SE's had somewhere in the very high 290's to very low 300's out of the box with stock valve sizes. I don't know what the TE's flow out of the box. Jim is exactly right on too big of an intake valve size is detrimental. The 2.25" intake valve with the 4.350" bore is just too big. You get into valve shrouding issues and reversion. I'd guess Jim is using a 2.17" or 2.18" intake. I'm wondering if he moved the guide??? I have a set of Stage 3's with the 2.25" intakes. And after reading Jim's latest flow numbers I was humbled but decided to put my numbers up for comparisons sake. I started the porting and then sent them to Charlie E. to finish. Sometimes it pays to pay someone else to do a good job and get it done!! My low/mid lift numbers would improve with a different set of valves (smaller intakes, larger exhaust) along with the 11/32" stems vs. 3/8". The Stage 3's have the .080" spread of valve centerlines also putting them closer yet to the cyl. wall. But I bought the heads second hand, but brand new (someone elses failed plans). I've thought about spending the cash to convert to smaller valves and 11/32" guides but they'll flow plenty of air for a street engine (girdled, billet rod, roller, Dom.) lift.........................intake..................exhaust .100"........................71.........................63 .200".......................147.......................112 .300".......................219.......................154 .400".......................279.......................191 .500".......................321.......................223 .600".......................340.......................245 .700".......................335.......................261 This is a limited budget approach while trying to do it right and make the $$ stretch.
