Thank you TA and all involved, even if I never buy one of these things it's still nice to know that passion and successful business practices can both survive together. Devon
Woo. Just so everyone knows we are taking deposits for a block. Be one if the first to own one of these, its a great milestone for us all; the Buick community.
for the less math inclined? 4.500" bore x 5.750" stroke is a whopping 731.60 cubic inches. i think you just blew the GM factory 572 out of the water. y'all better hop to designing some monster heads and intakes for these bad boys. :laugh: BTW, posted to Buicks.net / TeamBuick.com. :beers2:
I bellieve they have some "indian" type heads in the works as well. yeah, i know. and the faster they get them out of the way the faster they can get to the really important stuff like Rover and 350 heads. :TU:
No they're still working on getting the block machined (writing the program for the CNC etc.) No we don't have any plans on making an iron block as it wouldn't really be any cheaper than an aluminum block and then we would have to invest more time and money into developing the ability to make and machine an iron block.
Finally We'll Be Able To Compete With The Big Boys !!! How Cool Would It Be To Start Seeing Buicks In The Winner Circle And The Brand X's Crying.....:tu:
Just like the rappers I think we have an east coast/west coast problem. I spoke with Mike at the BPG Nats about a CI block. As far as I can tell CI is not something normal to west coast foundries or machine shops. On east side of the Mississippi CI is a more "normal" material. Mike's answer to my question (it's just not cost effective for him to do a CI block) was well prepared so obviously he's been asked before, looked into it and it's just not economical for TA to do. Now for my personal opinion on the matter for anyone who cares to read along. I have two Mopars and two Buicks in my garage so I'm familiar with both makes. The evolution of the aftermarket block for a 440 is an interesting comparison. The Hemi and the 440 are essentially the same block except for the top row of heads bolts. For as long as you could buy an aluminum Hemi block you could get an aluminum 440 block. Nobody bought them. Just too expensive when 440's could be bought for $100. In the late 80's Chrylser saw what a stock used CI Hemi block was selling for and decided to remake them. They also decided to sell 440 versions. Guess what? Much to their suprise they couldn't make enough. They still can't make enough and finally updated the tooling and has World Products making them now. Siamese 4.5" bore, cross bolted mains, etc. etc. The introduction a great Ci block coincided with Indy Cylinder Head and Brodix making 440 heads capable of over 750 HP. Over 600HP and a stock 440 block has durability issues. Aluminum main caps get a stock 440 block to 750-800 HP but you are still limited with the max bore size of 4.38" with available heads flowing 400 cfm. An aftermarket CI block is good to 1200+ hp and has a 4.5" bore so 500"-572" (ideal for 400 cfm heads) is easily acheived. 540" a popular size because it uses a 4.5" stroke and a stock 4.32" bore. It can wear out a bore then go .030, 060 then go to 4.5" bore and then .030 and .060 past that. A lot of people start at a std bore with non ported heads flowing around 325 cfm to keep initial cost down. After a couple of seasons they invest in boring to 4.5" and porting to 400 cfm. IMHO the CI blocks popularity over aluminum is for three reasons. First is price. Over 3K is a price break a lot people just will not cross. Second is the price to repair and aluminum block if it's window'd. Although the "repairable" aspect of aluminum blocks sounds appealling it's big $ to repair a windowed block. Sleeves installed are $250 each, labor to weld the holes, fix the damage and remachine a welding warped block is a killer. If more than two rods go out the side it costs almost as much to repair an aluminum block as a new CI block costs (say $2500). Third reason is that in reality if a quality block and quality rods are used the engines don't blow up so the whole repair issue becomes a non issue anyway. Others have argued that all the parts are available to make a stock Buick block live a long life. That is true, but at the end of the day what you have is a stock CI block wrapped in bandaids for the same cost as other brands pay for race CI blocks. Block girdles ($1100 installed?), halo's($250), lifter girdles ($550 installed), add on the normal maching cost and you're way over $2500! What about weight? An aluminum block is about 100# lighter. No argument there. But it cost an extra $3000 for that 100#. Not cost effective for me. For others it is, when the last .10 second is worth it whatever the costs. What I'm not saying: I'm not saying there isn't a good market for a good aftermarket aluminum block. TA is soon going to fill that market. For the people that need it and can afford it it will be a god send! I am not complaining that TA is not making a CI block. They've looked at it and from their perspective it doesn't make good business sense. I hope that changes but right now what it is, is what it is! What I am saying: I think there is a good market for a quality CI Buick block that's affordable! Look at this. http://www.krepower.com/MR-1.htm I think if this was available for a Buick it would sell! This block is cheaper and stronger than building a used Buick block with a block girdle and and lifter girdle. How many Buick engines have girdles on them? That's at least how many blocks would have been sold since the girdles came out plus how many more people would be building high HP Buicks if blocks like this were available? I admit my whole discussion/comparison is based on a CI Buick block being able to be produced for $2500-$3000. I can't remember what Bulldogs blocks were going to be sold for but if a Pontiac block can be cast, machined and sold for $2700 in the rust belt of Ohio why couldn't a Buick?
Nice Post! I enjoyed reading that. I've heard stock 350 blocks are good to 1000 HP. Now that sounds cost effective!!:bla: Can't wait for someone to throw 30-40 psi of boost at one of these AL babies!:beer
I uploaded 11 new photos of the casting after it was cleaned up a bit, they're a bit nicer photos too. (The Entire Set) http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/sets/72157606528278536/ Individual Photos: http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824314053/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824314271/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824314577/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824315003/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2825150224/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2825150474/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824315747/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824316263/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2824316831/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2825152100/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ http://flickr.com/photos/wizkid45/2825152556/sizes/l/in/set-72157606528278536/ I'll upload the actual photos to the forums when I'm done with school later, otherwise enjoy :beers2:
So there are some that will have "filled" water jackets for strip motors? And others with regular water jackets?
My guess is that the "solid" version is for Rod. Since he's running alcohol, in a race-only situation, he doesn't need any water but he does need all the strength he can get. Mike told me mine will have water, but the water passages aren't large enough to weaken it enough to worry about.
You are correct. Thanks for uploading the pictures to the thread, I dont have enough time here at school before classes, just enough to write the post haha.
Great Pics Jr.. Any idea what the "as cast" weight is (of one with water jackets)? Just wonderful to see a pallet of 455 aluminum blocks! We have been waiting a long time for this. Don't know if the no water jacket option is really on the menu, as the only thing you should really run that with is an alky injected engine.. but I believe that one is going to a certain fellow in IL with a Supercharged Regal, that has had some trouble making 1400 HP lately.. ---------- Doug, I hear you on the iron block thing, but the reality is that the Pontiac deal has been years (if not a decade or so) in the making, and the price is based on the volume they can do with those, plus the fact that I believe there were several different outfits that, over the years, absorbed the R&D and startup costs for that project . With TA's, GTO's and such, there are simply more folks out there to buy that block. As far as mopars go, that's a tough comparison. With factory support still, as well as hoards of pentastar fans out there, it simply isn't a valid comparison, in light of our relatively small numbers in the Buick world. The more potential customers there are out there, the more product will be available, and the cheaper the price can be. And in the case of both the mopars and the Pontiacs, the larger following of those cars used up the available supply of factory iron blocks, much quicker than us Buick guys are using up the factory blocks. Even today, a rebuild-able stock 455 Pontiac block, nothing special, goes for right around $500, bare. And if that $2700 iron block didn't exist, I am sure the price might triple.. Buick blocks, easily capable of 575-600 Hp with non of the so-called "band aids", are plentiful and relatively cheap. In my 10 years now of building high performance Buick motors for a living,(an a quarter century of doing it including my own race stuff) from 870 HP race motors to 350 HP stockers, I can tell you that there are two very distinct camps in the Buick world. The most populated segment, buy far, is the guy who wants to build 450-600 HP, and keep the price out of the stratosphere. For these guys, plenty of blocks are available. If I take a minute to count them, I have built about 45 of those motors in the last 5 or so years. That's a 6500-12K engine, depending on the build. It's tough to say that this guy is going to spend 25-50% of his budget buying your mythical $3K bare block. I just don't see that. The other, much rarer camp is the guys who have the funds to spend, and want to go fast. That is the market segment this block is aimed at. 600-1500 HP, maybe more.. In the last decade, I have build about 8 of these engines, all in the 625-875 HP range. These motors, with questionable reliability, are $12-20K+ pieces of equipment, and for this segment, the 6K TA block is right on target. While it will increase the overall cost of such an engine as an initial investment, I can assure you, having kept an 800+ BBB alive, with required tear downs and maintenance inspections over the last 8 years, the 6K block is a very cost effective investment for this type of engine. If you want to build to this level, you will spend the money, sooner or later.. And you might spend a whole lot more, if you have a major incident. So you see the great distinction between the two camps, as well as the numbers. Do I think I $3000 iron block would sell?... Sure, there would be some sales, but I can assure you that when the average Joe Buick guy gets on the phone with me, and wants to buy that mythical $3000 block, to build a 550 Hp engine, I am going to inform him that his money would be better spent on cylinder heads, and he more than likely would opt out of the "mid range" block, that he really doesn't need, for a reliable, more powerful engine, based on a factory block.
