Let me recap my progress on my Riviera - Bought in 2005 with a Bone stock 425. Added Headers, EBrock 750 K&N X-Tream Filter, and TT Roller rockers. I had Cooper Tires (225/70/15) 3.07 gears. I ran the car with my G-Tech and saw 14.3-14.7 at about 98 MPH I think this was about last summer (I really need to write stuff down with suffering from CRS) Since then I put on a stock DQ which added 600 CFM, ground out the divider on the manifold on the drivers's side, put 255/60/15 Drag radials on, and changed to 3.23 gears as well as improvements to the suspension and rebuilt the drive shaft. When I was screwing around with the G-tech a few months ago I was getting 15.20 90 mph 1/4 times. Went to E-town last friday and guess what The G-tech was on- what bothers me is-did I sacrifice performance when I put the stock DQ on (Ok Doc, don't hurt your fingers typing "I told you so"). I want to get my hands on a stock single 4BBL with a 750-850 CFM carb (I don't care who makes it as long as it is tuned) and see the difference. **Just as a little note here** I have a stock DQ for sale (not the one on my car, I ain't that drastic) I am offiering to my Nailhead buddies first $450 + shipping($30-40 depending on where you are) PM Me - 1st PM that states they are definite gets it. Paypal, MO, or check(I'll ship when it clears):TU:
Hey Yac, I am playing around with a 950 quick fuel with a opened up plenum on a sqaure bore and am getting to feel like you might be on to something.:eek2:
Years ago, Mike Modena had this beat up 65 GS. He would have a single 4 barrel on during the week, and Friday night would switch it over to a dual quad setup for the weekend. :3gears: Geez, I think we were both under 20 at the time The problem with DQ setups is that there are sacrifices in port design to squeeze 2 carbs on. There's only so much real estate on a manifold. But there's nothing like a DQ for the wow effect at a car show
DQ being slower certainly supports all I've heard. With the boat I have it's not about the ET's. Rick
I know exactly what you're talking about now J. I think an 850 DP holley on a slightly modified stock manifold wil be able to get more fuel/air to easch individual cylinder than the DQ setup with 1350 CFMs. Bob - I wish I can take credit for being on to something, but a few guys have been pounding their fists about this for a while (Doc:rant: )... even to the point of PMing me not to go with a DQ (I just don't listen sometimes):spank: - But for the love of Pete!!:Smarty: - DQ's are awesome looking and everyone thinks they are the coolest.
To draw an analogy....boob jobs decrease functionality, but they sure do increase..........well you know where I'm going with this. Rick
A Motor Trend article from June, 1964 which covered the then new Wildcats, mentioned that the 401 was faster off of the line than the 2X4 425, that is until the 425 cleaned itself out. Then it left the 401 sitting.
Sir, are you bogging off the line with the set-up and the DR's? Are the carbs the originals? How about the air cleaner, stock or aftermarket? If bog then get a different tire, one with a bit of spin, just a tires worth and try that. Personally a set of 500cfm carbs would be fine, 1000cfm well distributed, new, modern Edelbrock units and not the antique, coreect for car shows but new design units! Finally if you have a stock type air cleaner the carbs/engine is being choked to a loss at the track. Get the car on a dyno, change the 2 different intakes, set-up before you go and bring a friend for a 15/20 minute change. You want an AFR of around 12.5:1 for a safe amount of gas andd air. Lower and you are rich, under 12:1 and pig rich is near! That's Turbo/SC territory! Depending on the fuel and your particular set-up a 13:1 should be a target as long as it does not pinggggggg. Stock air cleaners are terrible! Would the Riv have room for a cold air system? The type that Poston sells so you don't hack the firewall unless you don't mind doing that for outside air. Next time at the track don't open it WOT until the revs are up and with the weight of that car a higher stall converer is being begged for, especially with dual quads, to get the revs to 3000rpm quickly and out of the "bog" territory. Thanks for letting a newbie try to help! PS: Are the mods you listed the complete list? Has the distributor been recurved and if so what are the timing specs? Initial, total, in by what rpm, etc. Back to the converter the Rivs of the day had 3.42's if not mistaken with duals and even though 3.23's are a good gear they are not condusive to the best times with that much fuel being dumped at once. Even a tire that is an inch or inch and a half lower will bring the gear ratio closer to what the Riv's ran back in the day, may look a bit odd at the track but could be worth a lot of data! I's also want to hae the converter rev to nearly the peak torque. If peak is 3000rpm wih the duals then at least 2750rpm stall, more if possible. With the switch pitch a 3000 top rpm stall would wake the car up more than gears. It's the combination that will make for a quick nail, not peak HP, as has been a subject around here lately. Last is try things! Maybe a set of NGK platinums, nice hot spark, love 'em. If the stock air cleaner there is a loss right there. 1200cfm of air and a air cleaner that flows half that, at best, even the dual snorkel type. Run it without a filter and the top flipped if it will let air into that beast. Cooler T-stat, 180* and a range colder plug just for the track with more timing if it will not ping. Lucas octane booster really works adding 3 full points of octane to give you 96 if 93 is the base octane. Just for the track. If the distributor is not recurved you can adjust it yourself, if I remember, with a different sleeve over the pin that limits mechanical advance in the stock distributor. Not many will spend $300. for a wideband but how else to properly tune the motor if you don't know the AFR? Several guys could share the cost, have their pipes with the bung added and plug it when not in use and be capable of using the wideband when it is your turn. Find out where your car likes the AFR at for best power. Litle things make a huge difference. Peak HP is good for show but not always for GO! Getting the torque, nails are torque motors, not power motors, to stay above 400lbs/foot from the earliest rpm to the latest rpm will yield the quickest et for your car. You will need some dyno time for that and you will know the AFR it likes also so worth the expense. When do you shift the car? 3-speed in that right, SP/ST400, one of the best trannies built! You may be short shifting it or not taking it high enough to have the engine remain in the sweet spot. Think about it. Torque is above 400lbs/foot at 2800/3000rpm. After a shift you want the revs to be at 2800/3000rpm and if torque falls off at 4700rpm then you shift at 5100-5200rpm IF after the shift the revs are at 2800rpm-3000rpm, GTREAT! Lower and the motor wastes time getting to where the best torque is made, higher, say 3500rpm and you have wasted 500rpm's of sweet spot torque/power. If the motor makes 400+wtq from 3000-4000rpm you ae going to be slow as the sweet spot is too narrow and the motor will never do what you want it to. There is a thread here where a dual quad made less power/torque but it made 400+ for a wider range than the single 4 so my money says the duals would be quicker all else being equal. Yes, peak looks good and power is rpm dependent but this motor is not rev happy and it doesn't matter if someone has gotten a nail to rev to 7000rpm, the average nail WILL self destruct at that rpm. Torque is the force that pushes you back into the seat. Why did the '70 Stage 1 be the 3rd quickest car that Car and Driver tested in the 60's and early 70's after the Cobra(485hp-yeah right!)in a 2200lb car and the 435HP Vette (with 4.10's) forget the HEMI, forget the LS-6 454/450HP Chevelle. man I love that, Chevy's highest rated muscle car being beat by a Buick with 100HP less! Combination and TORQUE! Power keeps the car moving at that speed once the torque gets it there. How often do you run at 5500rpm for extended periods of time? Somebody build a nail for TORQUE, and lots of it, a wide range and not so much 475lbs/foot but 450lbs/foot for an extra 1000rpm's! Sorry for the readers digest condensed version, you should read the entire book!
Yaccy, Dang, I wish you was close to me , we would throw this 3 bbl. [1050cfms ] on it and just see what it would do. I agree with 66 in that you have to be concerned about the air cleaner too, too many times we get to looking at just one segment and miss the total picture. :idea2: My original car with the first 3 bbl [950 cfm] was a beast off the line, [ 4.11 gear and stock 1966 th400 sw.pitch trans] in a 64 skylark body. I ran and beat a lot of cars that should have took me, but I would put such a hole shot on them it would take them further than a quarter to catch me. My air cleaner at the time was a 1959 big car unit that I had run a big hose from the side of it to the winshield wiper chamber. Did not look fast, but run fast. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Nooooooo, pard, I wont say I told you so, But I will say that the 1968-1969 year model holley 3 bbl carbs are well worth finding, fixing up and running on the strip and street. They perform wayyyy better than people think and are basicly just a simple bolt on set up. :laugh:
Knowledge is power, pun intended! Doc, your '64(?) was not a numbers matching GS so you could do some innovative things that show some thinking on your part also! Sounds like you had some fun with that car! One of those priceless moments when you beat a guy who thinks he has you before the race has even started, huh?! It has long been proven that a single 4 is better than a dual quad or any multiple carb set-up but a well set-up dual quad could run very close and have that wow factor that is what they are really about. In fact dual quads and the finned covers are what define a nailhead and are part of why the Riv and GS were Cars car(s) of the year in '65. Beautiful pieces of engineering on a timeless looking car, the Riv! Doc, K-B ran the big Thermoquads for a reason as they raced for cash and national recognition and not for simply the fun as we do. Either the 3-bbl. Holley's or the 850 TQ would be my choice for a 425 nail(401) depending on whether you are a Holley or Carter guy. Thermoquads can be had but are difficult to find, at least the performance versions. Google for Thermoquad will bring up the site.
Whew- 66 you must have been all fired up for that posting-but I appreciate it! Getting the Rivi to run the way I expect will take a few things, some will take longer to install and are not the quick fix. I would love to have it all done for the stock appearing drags in 10 days but that ain't gonna happen. Here is the list: 1. I am going to a smaller tire ASAP 235/60/15- 26.1" 2. I have a SP400 Trans waiting to go in, but it will take some mods and I have to wait for the converter to be redone by JW. 3. B262 will replace the stock manifold. Got real lucky and scored one over the weekend, just waiting on shipping! Of course it's on the left coast and I'm on the right. 4. Play with the carbs a little more. 66- I have an MSD billet distributor with a 6A box. I am running Bosch Platinums which we pulled at the track and they looked good (no fouling or too lean) Timing was set at the track allin at 2500 RPM at 36*. I am running 2 E-Brocks. Primary is 600 Secondary is 750. The 750 has been re-jetted and metering rods were changed due to it being rich out of the box. The 600 was not too bad, but we can always look at them again. I ran the car 3 passes with the oval Billet air cleaner on the car. She was definitely having some breathing problems, so we took the air cleaner off and ran it "cammando" Picked up a 10th. BUT- MY first run, which was my fastest run was with the air cleaner on. go figure? I can do some tweaking here and there but the truth of the matter is the car has 115K and I think I am getting just about the best she can do out of her. 14.5 is real respectable for a 4375 lbs. car (with me in it) that was not designed for 1/4 mile racing. Anything under 14.5 is a bonus for me. I think with the mods I have planned I will be right there.
Jim Burek sold (still sells?) a ported 4bbl Nailhead manifold that was opened up to fit a Holley as well. He might know a thing or two, but I have not seen any recent posts by him? He had some nice #s on the heads too. Maybe someone should ask him on the PAE site. Cheryl
Mr. Yacopino the 1" shorter tire will bring your effective gear ratio closer to teh 3.42 Buick used, just a few hundreths shy. A 2-speed in a Riv? With that 1.77.5 ratio in first it is great that you are into the numbers you are posting, not a good way to get that weight rolling even with the torque available! I hope no-one takes offence but a 600 and a 725 or 750 on a dual quad, HUH? Check Gesslers site and the stock intake alone is off by 30% from the best to worse flowing runners and then to mix carbs, well find a YODA/MASTER carb tuner! Really a pair of 600's or even 500's would at least give more even flow and be modern tech carbs and not 40+ year old tech. Timing at 36 is pushing it isn't it, 93 octane(?) nd all in by 2500. As a simple student 36* in at 2500rpm was good back 30+ years ago with leaded, high octane fuel but if you are not knocking with what I would percieve as a bog of some amount with high timing, heavy car and no spin more power to you. Stock cam should be close to 30/32* shouldn't it? I'm sorry does the MSD back of timing a degree or so each 1000rpm? Must be that is how you are doing that! You've got a couple of tenths there yet and your goal with the new tranny and a mild cam even though you have the TT roller tip rockers. Did you check the timing chain for wear? The gears, especially the nylon cam gear? Try to get some ambient air to that motor and see what that does for it instead of underhood temp, dry, dead air! Good luck!
Mr. Yacopino? - What am I, Your english teacher from Junior High? lol:bla: Just kidding thanks for the respect but Tony is fine.Now if I can just get your name we'd be in business. I don't think your parents named you 6671:laugh: I did dump in 5 gallons of 100 octane and had about 5 gallons of 93 in it before racing. I am not going with a 2 speed tranny that is the 300 series, I'm going with a SP400 with the converter out of a 300. High stall will be about 3000 and flash almost 3500. I don't think I mentioned it but Yoda -er' Tom T was with me at the track. But he did suggest we play with them carbs some more. Stock carbs from the factory on a DQ were 2 - 625 Carters 1250 CFM total. I am only running 100 more CFM which is really not a big difference when all totaled (Just sounds like a lot). As for checking the timing gears and all, I don't think there is a need. Like I said this motor has about 115K on it and is due for an overhaul in the near future. I just want to have fun with it before she comes off the road for a 2-3 year rebuild/restoration.
