Thanks for that intro, Duane! As we know, numbers ARE important to the judges at our shows. Restoring a car means trying to take it back as close to original as possible, and those that do it better than most get to compete in "concours." I like that Duane and others who have risen to the top of the judging heap have made it plain that cars will not be docked for using repro parts, and I am sure Duane can tell when a car has used his parts. It is a testament to Duane's honor that I have NEVER heard anyone complain that Duane gave a car more points for using his parts. Now to my 'kind of' rhetorical question. Let's say I restore my stage 1. I take it back to as close to original as it can be. That includes orange peal in the paint, slightly misaligned hood doors and trunk, bumpers slightly askew and the ORIGINAL 247 carb. I will get smoked in concours class. Even the judges will admit that the cars in concours class have a bunch of small stuff wrong with them that I can see when comparing them to my original car that has never been messed with, except for engine rebuild, trans, brakes and exhaust. BUT, if I have the "wrong" numbered carb on it I will get docked points, because it "should" have a 246, when it actually was built with a 247. For the guy that wants to compete, these parts have to be made available, whether it's a real carb off the shelf of a parts collection, or a good restamp. He'll buy what he can afford. The guy who pays the big bucks for the real one can moan, but the guy who can't afford the real one has less money, so he's probably the one who's really hurting when he checks his bank account, anyway.
My 70 GS was in the concours class last year in BG. I was docked points for having the "incorrect wheels". The note on the judging card said "centers too shiney/polished". When in fact, my car has unrestored original 7" (not WG since my car is a 12B build) wheels with an October 69 date code. I guess they thought I had aftermarket wheels on the car. Sometimes the judges just miss it and make the wrong call.
Dan, Duane is on the road, so I'll take the liberty of answering your post. We do not check numbers on carbs, distributors, etc when we judge a car. All we are looking at is that it is correct for the date of manufacture of the car and is correctly finished. We don't look at date codes either. If the part in question is correct appearing, we do not deduct points. JR, I am sorry you lost points for your wheels. From what you said, you should not have and probably would not have if Duane and I were judging your car. As long as the correct "look" is there, no points should be deducted. We also make allowances for different variations in color and sheen with no points being deducted for slight differences. The only time "numbers" really comes into play is when a seller and a buyer are in negotiation for the purchase of an automobile.
Thanks for posting, Brad. You guys are even more reasonable than I thought. Have you guys, as judges, had guys try to complain that the other guy's carb and distributor weren't correct, etc? and thus "my car should have won?" Dan
Never to my face!:laugh: You must understand, a judge should NEVER touch a car, for any reason. We are just there to observe. So, for example on a carb, we would not be able to see the stampings with an air cleaner on and we will not ask the owner to remove a part just to look at numbers. As long as the carb is, for example, a 1970 carb or at least has the outward appearance of a 1970 carb, we don't care what numbers are stamped.
:gp: The Buick Concours class is very reasonable, I drove my GS a few hundred miles to the BPG nats one year and still was able to do well in the concours class.. They make it so it is not a "trailer car only" class.
That's what's great about the concours class - there's not competition within the show field. I'm even guilty of helping a few guys out at both the GSCA and BPG shows this year (that I was entered in) with spare fire extinguishers, "correct" ram air foam seals, and minor detailing so they wouldn't loose points. It is strictly based off the scoring sheet as to what is correct, and more specifically about what is not correct with the cars. In other words, everyone who enters can win the same award, and it eliminates people from complaining about not winning 1st place. Some may still whine, but it's usually regarding what they feel is correct after they see their scoring sheet (like me :rant. It's still a hobby for me, so I try to enjoy it despite all the negativity these days. :TU: Great thread. Sorry for the hijacking, Steve.
...Im not sure about the concours rules today, but, years ago I asked Duane about my car having an A/C pass. side vent when it was a Non-A/C car - 46K mile 86 year old lady one owner car that I yanked out of her heated garage ... all paperwork for every time the car was touched (only, of course, at the dealership). Im sure it was original to the car, and was probably installed because the parts bin with non-AC vents was empty when it rolled through so they reached into the other bin - Duane said it is incorrect for this particular car so therefore parts would be deducted UNLESS there was proof of some kind that this was in fact the way it was delivered by the dealership ___________________ as for Donny and the Distrib. restamping I've thought about this one a bit and have a question for all of you that just think he's a capitalist pig - what if it were GM Restoration Parts that was offering these Distribs - Fresh new units reproduced with exacting detail stamped with any/every number you could ever wish for ??
I didnt take it too seriously. I didnt enter the car to win gold or anything. It took a bronze and that was more than I had hoped for since the car has a roll bar. I wanted to enter it in concourse just to say that I did it, and also to have it judged along side some of the best Buicks in existance and to take the judging card that I received and look at the areas that I needed to improve, which I have done. I learned a lot from the judging card, and from looking at the other cars like Weinmans, Carl's and the others. I will be displaying it at the World of Wheels show in Atlanta Jan 4,5,6 and I want it to be as good as possible, so I have some more work to do.
My take on this is damn simple...I am building a racecar and am selling off all the numbers matching parts to fund my car. I don't give a crap if the carb is correct distributor is correct and Hell, I'm not anal retentave.I'd trade a numbers match part for something I need anyday.If I had money to buy a restoation project,maybe I'd care. Like Duane and I discussed before,there is room for both our kinds in this hobby.You guys think restoring a car is pricey? try making a racecar once. I have about as much in performance parts as I would a restoration. How I got alot of it funded cheaply? Sold numbers matching parts. Maybe a bad trade off to some,but not me.The deal Dustin sold the Stage 1 carb pushed me over the edge. For 2100 bucks, I could have done so much more to my car. Lastly I'll add this as I tell everyone about huge parts prices...."I'd never pay that crazy amount for it,but will gladly accept that amount if you want it badly enough."
