Oil Pressure Equalization line

Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Jim Weise, Feb 24, 2015.

  1. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Here is the pick up that came with the pan I got from you, both your pick and the TA scavenger are -12 so not much I can do other then spend more to upgrade to -14 or -16 story of my life LOL message me the cost of the Update pick up Steve and I will see if there is enough room to enlarge the scavenger cover.
     

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  2. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    I also think grooved main saddles work well also.
     
  3. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Jim here is my 469, There is the 2 returns at the back along with a hole that drops on to the camshaft. There is also 2 holes in the front for when you decelerate. Its real hard to watch the oil pressure gauge for any amount of time to watch for any drop or fluctuation. What do you have for oil control/windage in the pan? Here are a couple pic's of the rear oil drains.
     

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  4. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    Front return holes.
     

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  5. gymracer01

    gymracer01 Well-Known Member

    Buicksstage1:

    Just got a chance to look at the valley in your engine. Mine very similar, don't have drain hole over cam at rear. Did want to run this engine a little harder. We had made 648 HP with a similar setup and was hoping for more with this one. Got to do some more studying. Will try to get pictures up soon.

    Jim N.
     
  6. buicksstage1

    buicksstage1 Well-Known Member

    The first engine pic I posted showing the scavenger system was 10.9:1, HYd roller cam, stg2se heads and made 648.1 HP @6100 It had a scavenger system and grooved main saddles other then the normal enlarging from oil sender to cam etc. That engine had 75psi oil pressure at the start of the pull (3900 rpm) and held solid all the way to the end of the pull @ 76psi. Oil control and grooved main saddles are the 2 of the most important things on the oil mod list in my opinion.
     
  7. No Lift

    No Lift Platinum Level Contributor

    Any REAL Buick engine builder has been doing that stuff for years. I thought everybody knew about it. That was just Mike's way of letting the Brand-Xer's in on some secrets and he doesn't really talk about what you do if you don't use the "Scavenger" system to clean up all those bends. Don't forget about cleaning up the passages in the oil filter housing either. If you don't have a TA cover then there's more passages to open up.

    Jim gets into some of it:

    http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?214613-400-430-455-Block-ID-Prep-and-Oiling-mods

    The drilling out of the pickup side has been going on since the 70's and people have been adding incremental improvements ever since.
     
  8. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    Has anyone ever completely revamped the stock oil system? here is my thought- hard blocking the feed lines between the cam and mains. Then using TA's fancy pump cover run a main feed line into the oil pan and drill feed lines through each main cap, and then run a line up to the galleys to feed the lifters? It would be a homemade priority system. The oil pan would be tough to fab up, but it would be worth it. maybe?
     
  9. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    As someone who has put a gallon (figuratively) of JB Weld into an engine oiling system and ran external lines where needed, I think it would be a pretty bold strategy to run the lines directly to the main caps.

    IMO, particularly when simple oil feed updates will put you in territory that you are more likely to pull the main supports out of the block than come up short on oil. That being said, with the thick girdle I see this being more feasible in the sense you could run the oil lines entirely through the girdle. A fitting of the appropriate size on one of the sides (near timing cover?) to pass the oil from external pump and into crank case, then all the lines ran to where they need to go at each cap. There would still need to be some kind of sealing method between the girdle and the cap, or perhaps a thin veneer of RTV would suffice? It would also take out the need of a flexible hose in the crankcase going to the pan, it could all be hard lined onto the girdle. Still will be fun making sure none of the lines get tagged by the rotating assembly and still fits in an oil pan, but all part of changing things.
     
  10. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    ya Joe, your looking at it..

    [​IMG]

    IN short-

    External oil pump, fed directly from the sump

    To- oberg oil filter

    Block modifed as follows- center 3 mains are drilled all the way up into the lifter galley- an oil manifold is then constructed, that pushes past the factory main galleys, but just short of the factory camshaft feeds. This manifold is in effect a priority oil feed to the mains, by-passing lifter bleed off in the passenger main galley.

    This had to be done in high lift roller cam engines built before TA came out with fully shrouded roller lifters.. the roller would expose the bottom of the oil galley, causing a massive hemorrhage, if you tried to feed the mains thru the factory galleys.

    The passenger side galley is drilled and tapped in the front for a 3/8 pipe plug, beyond the intersection of the factory feed hole/front main galleys- a .060 hole is then drilled in that plug to feed the lifters. The driver side galley feeds around the rear of the TA front cam bearing, as normal.

    The rear of the passenger side galley is drilled for a 3/8 pipe plug, which is again installed beyond the intersection of the rear main/factory galley passages. A -6 line is run to the rear to feed just the rear main, the plug also has a .060 hole it in, to feed the lifters.. I know Dave Mongeon used just one hole in his setup for the lifters.

    oil is fed from the Oberg oil filter to:

    a -10 line to the manifold under the intake from the front, you can see it in the picture. This line fed the 3 center mains.
    a -8 feed the factory pressure hole from the Oberg- this feeds the front cam bearing- driver side galley, and front main.
    a -6 feed the rear of the passenger side galley, and the rear cam bearing/main.

    I built this motor in 2002, and refined it thru the 2007 season. AT 870 HP/765 Torque, it was very durable, and was in use every season thru 2 owners, up till this last year, when it was retired in favor of of a Tomahawk.

    Your surprised that I build this, aren't you Gary.. after having your head filled with nonsense like "Weise just builds cookie cutter street motors"- ya, I have heard that one too. :rolleyes:

    The purpose of this thread is not so solve problems that don't exist. It's to discuss an easy mod to equalize the oil flow/pressure in the passenger side galley, front to rear.

    Scavenger type oil pump kits were developed in the time period that the engine above was built, to attempt to feed enough oil to the stock mains to keep the pressure up, with the mains bleeding out the bottom from the roller lifters in use at the time.

    Does a scavenger oil pump reduce the number of 90* turns.. sure it does.. but you know what it also is...?

    A huge Pain in the ASS.

    And simply not required for our motors anymore, unless you refuse to use the correct block to build a high HP Buick race motor.

    Guys using the external oil pumps/dry sumps on the Tomahawks are doing it because they already owned the equipment, so might as well use it.

    There is a forced induction 555 on the stand now, that will make well over 1000 HP, and will in fact use a 7/8 internal pickup, and that "inadequate" factory oil pump, with all those nasty 90* turns.. :grin:

    If it doesn't work, and I have to go to a scavenger type setup, I will be the first to tell you all.. I did that setup on the first Tomahawk I built in 2011, and I really think it was not required. Good thing I had it, because that motor had a pressurized feed directly to the top end, due to the lifters having on extra hole in them. Now that we located and eliminated that problem, I have every confidence that all this external oiling junk will no longer be required, unless you want the safety factor of running a dry sump engine.

    Stay tuned..

    JW
     
  11. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    And people say my engine has a lot of things going on around it :laugh:
     
  12. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    I never thought of going up through the lifter galleys. I don't think it would be much trouble to use the stock pump with the TA 1512 cover, run the "out" outlet through a remote filter then plumb it under the intake to feed the mains as you did with that motor, than run a tee off that line and neck it way down and run it back to the "in" outlet in the pump cover to feed the lifters. This may be reinventing the wheel some, but it would certainly be less complicated than that motor. I agree its probably unnecessary, perhaps it would increase oil flow enough so the main and rod clearances could be opened up some to allow for block flexing. I might be missing something, but I think this could be done for a couple hundred bucks in AN lines and fittings.

    Or instead of teeing off what would be the main line before it enter the motor, run an AN line from inside the galley and drill and tap each galley line and put an 1/8" NPT fitting in each side with a .060 restriction. Then simply plug the "in" outlet in the pump cover.

    Again, reinventing the wheel perhaps.
     
  13. gmcgruther

    gmcgruther Well-Known Member

    Hi there everyone ;-) Well I checked out Dave M. post about a certain oil modification and decided to pm Dave on the power levels of scavenger system, equalize line, TA's new front cover! I was schooled correctly, 700+ hp is a good idea for scavenger system and the Ford Cleveland valley oil modification but anything under that you can get away with TA's nee front cover and oil pump. That their is from TA it self. No need for equal balance line if running full grooved cam bearings (Call TA, they will tell you which ones.) Dave M. Thank you for explaining what I need not what possibly I need for 750+ horsepower. Jim, a lot of detail is being left out on your discussion when detailing the facts, I guess I wasn't asking the right ones. My bad but, please inform people the difference between the thresholds of 0-675 hp and 725 and beyond. Not everyone is dealing with lower level power. That's where I got confused with your oiling modification compared to what is needed in my hp level. Yes, I called TA Performance products yesterday and asked a bunch of oiling modifications, high volume and standard volume pumps, high pressure to standard pressure and different types of hydraulic flat tappet lifters. It was a very good educational talk needless to say. I would say this for everyone, please make calls if you have any doubts because its your engine not theirs and no two engines are alike.. I'm sorry for the confusion . Sincerely Gary M.
     
  14. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

  15. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    I am thinking of adding a steel equalization line, are the rear plugs NPT threaded?
     
  16. 436'd Skylark

    436'd Skylark Sweet Fancy Moses!!!!!

    Yes they are.
     
  17. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    :TU: Thank you!
     
  18. Jim Weise

    Jim Weise 1000+HP

    1/4 NPT--- and the thread has to be tapped deeper, to accommodate the fitting at the right depth, to clear the flexplate.

    JW
     
  19. TheSilverBuick

    TheSilverBuick In the Middle of No Where

    :TU:

    That is what was throwing me off. I have the tap (2 or 3 of them even..), but with the small amount of current threads in the block it was making me wonder if it was straight thread or NPT. Now to bend up some line so I can appropriately place the hole in the external block ribbing for it.

    I've done this same exercise on the OHC block.
     
  20. Michael Evans

    Michael Evans a new project

    On my last iron block that I had a by pass line I did not have to tap the hole deeper. I used a 1/4 male to 1/4 female 90 degree elbow then put a nipple through the bell housing (forget length).
     

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