I have purchased a part from a active member on this site and we have run into a difference of opinion. Here is the senario: The part was advertisted at $390 plus the shipping. I asked the member if he would sell it for $390 shipped. His response was "ok if you send it as a gift through Paypal. I accomadated his request as he was picking up the tab on the shipping. The member ships the part through Fed Ex and Fed Ex loses the part. I waited a month for the member to get it resolved with Fed Ex. Fed Ex states that cannot locate it and he will have to make an insurance claim. But, the member only insured the part for $100. Paypal will not allow me to dispute the transaction because it was sent as a gift. ( Lesson learned never pay any one for a part as a gift through Paypal as it only benifits the seller.) So I requested a refund from the seller for my $390 but, he refuses to pay me under the grounds that he believes we should split the loss. So here is his math, $390 for the part plus $100 from Fed Ex for the insurance coverage minus the $18 for shipping = $272 divided by 2 = $236 This is what he wants to pay me. First thing is, I did not tell him to under insure the item so why should I absorb any loss. Second thing is he will get rembursed for his shipping though that is minor and not an issue. Am I out of line here? Am I missing something? I gave him $390 for his item I did not receive the item am I not entitled a $390 refund? I am using this format only to have this member understand that he is incorrect, I could trash his name but I would like to give him a chance to step up and realize it is his loss not mine. Thanks Buickrat1 I appreciate your opinion.
My name is Joe and I am the seller he is talking about. The situation went a little different then stated. The only reason I asked him to send it as a gift was because he did not want to pay for shipping so I wasn't going to absorb the shipping and the paypal fees. There was 4 guys in line after him and the item could have been sold for what I was asking with shipping and paypal fees covered. If he did not want to cover the shipping cost then I was not going to spend any extra money to insure the item for more money. I've sold a lot of items on this board and I have only insured and item once when it was requested and paid for. Now to the important point. I had this happen to me once on the board n I bought some rockers n never received them. Stu who I purchased them from was very gracious when I asked him to send me half of the price I paid since I never received them and he did. By sending him back $236 we are both losing out on $154 dollars because Fedex lost the item. He has all the information from Fedex tracking and claim number. Dave has been extremely rude to me via email calling me cheap and no character and I have still offered him the $236. Thanks for listening. Big Joe
Well I'll jump in since I ship & buy a lot. Did you ask for insurance or assume it was included? If you didn't ask him/her to insure it for value(which is hard to prove).....IMHO it's not legally the sellers responsibility to refund youShipping company cost's go out of sellers pocket.Them making an offer to split the loss is totally inline. It's a judgement call on the sellers part. Been there & done that.ou: That's why a lot of guys that used to sell here....don't anymore. ---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 PM ---------- I took so long typing my 1st answer,it came up after your post.p What your quote in this post says....you took his offer shipped...as the add read,what did the add say,shipping & ins included?
I have sold a lot through ebay and through forums like this one. IF you opt to send as a gift, there is some inherent risk in doing so. You understood why you were sending money as a gift. Insuring the part to the full value would have increased the price and in all honesty you would have been better off just paypalling it normally. In truth you are just SOL. That being said, it sounds like the $236 is a fair offer. And in fact, probably more generous that I would have been. IMO you should mark it up as a lesson learned. Any good lesson that only costs $150 out of pocket is a good deal. I've learned much more expensive lessons a time or two in my life. The flip side is that you can probably spend a bunch of time/energy/money and you might or might not get the full $390 if you were to pursue legal action. Cut your losses, take the $236 and call it a day. Sucks to lose some money, but we've all been there. Also, try to put yourself in his shoes? If it were you, would you eat the entire cost of a part? It is also clear that there is no malice here, just a crappy situation around the horn.
I've bought parts from Jamie, and he's been great, but I have to disagree that the buyer should assume part of the loss for a part he never received. I've sold a few things here and I've always assumed it's my responsibility to properly pack the part and get it to the shipper and then deal with Fedex or whoever if something goes wrong. That includes refunding the buyer's money if the part gets lost. I've never had a part I sent get lost but if it was a serious amount of money I'd certainly consider insuring it for full value and figuring that into the sales price. But maybe the lesson is that who's going to do what in the event of a problem is better discussed beforehand, not afterwards.
I am sure you guys are good friends with Joe. It amazes me that the buyer has to make sure the seller insures the item. Extra insurance is .80 per hundred a total cost of $2.40 I insure every package I sent out to protect the buyer and seller that seems me to be common courtesy. Question, So if you order a part from one of the main Buick performance vendors and UPS or Fed Ex lost it, you guys would be ok in splitting the cost of the part that you ordered and never received, I do not think so. And does it make it ok that you got screwed in the past so its ok to take advantage of somebody when the time comes. I am shocked Joe that you do not think about protecting yourself and the Buick members by automatically insuring the part so scenarios like this do not happen. Maybe I am just stupid and should just play these dum games and not worry about my fellow Buick guys. Joe is taking pieces out of the email sent to him so i will post it here for your reading pleasure. Here is the email joe is reffering to: Joe this is unacceptable I was not the one who chose to insure the product for $100. Fed Ex like all other carries gives you an option to insure for more than the standard $100. It looks like to me you got cheap and gambled on the insurance to save money. That was not my call it was yours now you need to be a stand up guy and refund me my money. I am not going to accept anything less than $390. I asked you if you would take $390 shipped and you said yes as long as I would send the money as a gift through Paypal. I was the one accommodating you not the other way around. The arrangement you are suggesting only benefits as you got paid the $390 and I have nothing. You are expecting me to take a hit for $154 for sending you the $390. Fed Ex will reimburse you for the what you insured the part for and your shipping cost so your only lose is by you not decided to insure the part for the proper amount, why should I share in a decision made by you. This is speaking volumes of your character it might be advisable to protect others from these kind of hassles when purchasing parts from the V8Buick site. I expect a refund or a deposit of $390 on a new cover at TA Performance. Further more Joe Fed Ex will not deal with me as I am not the shipper, you have to file the claim. You will get your $18 shipping plus the $100 back from Fed EX so how is that part of your equation. Dave, Like I said previously I am very sorry there is a problem with Fedex and the timing cover. That being said you did not pay for shipping and payed thru paypal as a gift because you chose not to pay the extra 3%. I am very unhappy with fedex too but I will not be responsible for the whole cost of $390. I will split the cost with you as we have both lost out because of Fedex's mistake. Minus the $18 dollars for shipping and if Fedex only gives $100 as you stated then that leaves $272 divided by 2 is $136 plus the $100 from Fedex and I can send you $236 or put that towards a new timing cover from TA. This is the only fair solution I can think of that will help both parties with this major inconvenience from Fedex. Going forward I will charge everyone for insurance and the 3% paypal fee to avoid any problems like this again. I know its not ideal, but I hope this works for you Dave because I am losing out as well. I am not the type to get over on anyone and I am trying to make it right for us both. Thanks, Joe Joe I do not know how to explain it any better. You have a part for sale a TA Timing cover for $390, I ask you if you would take $390 shipped. Your response was "ok if you send it as a gift thru Paypal" I accepted the terms. If you as a seller except the price including shipping that means the shipping comes out pocket not mine. I as a buyer accepted your request to send payment as a gift through Paypal which saves you $11.70 so there is a trade of between your loss on shipping and your gain as a gift through Paypal. I did not request to pay you through Paypal it was your request to me to send it as a gift through Paypal, here is your proof. Originally Posted by Buickrat1 $390 Shipped to 85027? Originally Posted by BIGJOE Ok if you send as a gift thru paypal. <a href="mailto:joe72medrano@verizon.net">joe72medrano@verizon.net I will take it then is the email address above your paypal account? Payment sent, I put a statement on there so it looks like a gift These remarks are from the PM's sent between you and I. So you as a seller ship the TA Timing cover without adding the additional insure to protect both you and I. The first $100 is free with Fed Ex and for every additional $100 of insurance will cost you and additional .80 cents for a total cost of $2.40 NOT $20.00. I did not tell you to insure the part for $100 that was your decision. When I send a part out I always insure the part for what I sold it for to protect me and the buyer to avoid this exact scenario. So now Fed Ex loses the box and after their investigation they will reimburse you a $100 PLUS THE SHIPPING OF $18.00. I have posted this question on the V8Buick board to get others opinion on our issue. I can go further but I am giving you the chance to step up and refund me the $390 that is owed me. I am sure if the tables were turned and you were on this end you would be asking for the same. Dave I have a hard time believing that the people on this forum believes this is ok.
WOW!! Amazing how something so simple could be made so complex. To Big Joe: The $390 price including shipping was negotiated by YOU and accepted by YOU. If you had 4 other guys in line, why take Buickrats offer? You could have turned him down and got your asking price from someone else, but YOU chose otherwise. Whats funny is that you had this happen to you once before and you didn't learn anything from it.(your rocker story) To 65 Specialconver: Why would the buyer ask for insurance? That is the sellers responsibility, Does the buyer have to ask for a box and packing material also? Of course not, that is understood, just like insuring the item for the proper amount. It's not a judgement call on the seller it is his responsibility! To Glendayle: As you stated,sending money as a gift was a mistake as Buickrat already noted, but that mistake has nothing to do with the problem. If it wasn't sent as a gift the dispute would still exist. The buyer being SOL is just wrong.And I agree, there is no malice here, just negligence on the seller to provide ample insurance on the package that HE is sending. I think that's why they call it insurance, in case something happens- no one loses! This whole thing could be avoided if the proper insurance was put on the package. I mean really, would any of you guys in disagreement, would have ordered anything from any company and it was paid for and then lost, would split the cost with the company? That's absurd, it's no different for a private party sale. Kudos to Buickrat for not naming names and just describing the situation. Big Joe, you need to buck up and do what's right!! just do us all a favor and learn from it this time!
Dave just to be clear these guys are giving there opinions and I don't know any of them so to assume they are my friends is ridiculous. Second you didn't buy a part from TA or any other high end company. You bought it from a regular Buick guy that is selling a part that he is not using anymore. I'm not Rich or have a big company to run and remember I bought this part from TA brand new and paid for shipping, handling, insurance and whatever else they charge. You could never call TA and tell them I'll take the part but you pay for shipping. They have shipping, handling and insurance fees they charge. To tell you the truth the only reason I accepted 390 in the first place was to help a Fellow Buick guy because obviously you were trying to save money. Like you already know there were 4 other guys in line. There are plenty of guys who would not even give you anything back but I am not like that. I'm thinking about us both not just myself. Like I said before I'm sorry Fedex losing the package has caused this problem, but I am being more then fair offering to split the loss. Remember I bought this TA Timing cover new it wasn't free and I paid all the fees they charge. Thanks guys for your opinions, Joe
Big Joe, In my opinion you need to man up and pay BuickRat1 his full refund. I find it hard to believe you would expect the buyer to pay for insurance. The seller ALWAYS covers the insurance cost in any transaction I've been involved with, including my own sales. Did you consider $2.40 too much to absorb in a $390 sale? Did you not consider beforehand who would eat the loss in such an event, which does happen and anyone involved in the sales and shipment of parts has to realize (and has happened to you in the past). The way I see it BuickRat1 sent you the $$ and expected the part in good faith. You purposely didn't insure it for its value at your choice. I consider its your responsibility to see the buyer receives the part. And he didn't. So do the right thing and send him his full refund and you can put this unfortunate episode behind you and redeem some respect back from the Buick community. Its amazing really. I always considered the Buick guys to be a step above the rest, at least it was that way when I got into it (and I can pretty much guarantee I've been into this Buick hobby longer than you). But if the "new" Buick mentality is all about the $$ then you can count me out. Dave
Agreed 100%. The reality is the buyer purchased the part in good faith and never received it. The seller should assume full responsibility and pay the buyer back in full. Mike
Pretty cut and dry...Dave paid for a part and did not receive it. Refund in full due. Sorry Joe, but it was your responsibility to make sure he got the part he paid you for. I am actually stunned that some people (well known ones even) think that going halves on the loss is acceptable. I will make sure not to do business with them. Good luck!
:gp: ---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 AM ---------- Maybe there should be a sticky on the Parts for Sale Forum. Something to the effect that sellers take full responsibility for getting the part to the buyer unless other arrangements are made beforehand. I'm sure the kind of situation in this thread is pretty rare, but unfortunately it's causing a lot of hard feelings between board members who are here to get help with their Buicks and to help others out when they need it.
Maybe there should be a sticky on the Parts for Sale Forum. Something to the effect that sellers take full responsibility for getting the part to the buyer unless other arrangements are made beforehand. I'm sure the kind of situation in this thread is pretty rare, but unfortunately it's causing a lot of hard feelings between board members who are here to get help with their Buicks and to help others out when they need it.
It's a tough pill to swallow but I think a refund is due. I've always assumed responsibility for any items ordered from me that didn't arrive. The only exception was a delivery that 'got lost' whrer the buyer refused to cooperate with the delivery company to fill out some forms, and had a terrible feedback rating. Simple contract law would dictate that the item purchased was never recd, the contracted service never provided. Its always easier for us outsiders to stand back and comment but I vote refund. Somedays youre the windshield, some days youre the bug.
Buyer is responsible for payment meeting the sellers terms, Seller is responsible for shipment of item so buyer receives the item in the condition of the description of the sale. If the buyer never receives the item then the seller never fulfilled the first part of his responsibility, l.e. making sure the buyer receives his purchased item !! ... the only time this wouldn't hold true is if the buyer gave specific shipping instructions, which were followed - i.e., do not insure
Not that you need my 2 cents worth but here it is- If I sell a part and I agree to the buyer that the price will include shipping charges (which can be guestamated online with UPS, Postal, or FedEx), then it is MY responsibility that the buyer gets that part regardless of how they receive (shipping, hand deliver, stork, whatever). If that part is not delivered, I can't go to the buyer and ask for money for something he/she never received.. If the product was worth more than $100, the sender is responsible to insure what the product is worth. You are making the transaction with whomever is sending the product and you are the one who will be given a tracking number or bill of lading. The reason for the tracking number, bill of lading is in case there is a problem, you along with the shipper can resolve. I've made the mistake of sending product worth more than the basic $100 but luckily I've never had a problem, but now, I will always insure the true value because of this situation you two are in. Now I don't like to assume but Joe, either you just did the basic $100 dollar coverage because you didn't know any better (easy for me to say because honestly I didn't know better until after I'd sent product a couple of times) which doesn't seem to be the case because you said you had sold other items. Or, you just did the basic $100 coverage and this one came back and bit you in the butt. This situation sucks all around, I'm sure both of you, Joe and Dave are cool Buick stepchildren and absolutely would not subject anybody with intentions of unfair play but IMHO, Dave should get his full refund back. If I was a snake (chevy person), and people agreed to pay me half of something they didn't receive, I would fill out tons of FedEx packages slice the back of the package and drop it in the pick up box and then get half the money from the buyer?? Easy money...until they catch me for mail fraud which is a Federal offense! Um no thank you, but I think you get my point. Give the refund.. let Dave buy you a beer and learn from it..
I've been on the seller's end of a lost package. I refunded full price. Didn't even consider not doing so. When I order from a vendor at work, I have no financial risk of loss if a shipment never arrives. If ups or a freight carrier loses it, I get full credit.
