ATTENTION, Check Your Oil Relief Spring

Discussion in 'Street/strip 400/430/455' started by Buick Power, Apr 9, 2006.

  1. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member


    I wouldn't. The HV/HP pump kit used to be a fix for worn timing covers, when new ones weren't available, and there was no way to refurbish an old cover. Today, there is no reason to use one except possibly on a race only vehicle that is running big bearing clearances.
     
  2. SharpSabre455

    SharpSabre455 Sloan says "It's Rare!"

    Larry:

    Perhaps my post wasn't clear because I think you misunderstood me.

    I meant that if this issue applied to my car, I would check the spring first thing on Saturday morning and order the correct spring, if needed. "Get on it" as in "correct it right away." I didn't know if the issue we were discussing applied to a stock pump. I didn't mean that I hammer the heck out of my engine at first chance. I just didn't know if the original post applied to all pumps, including an original stock 455 pump.

    I never move my car from the garage until my engine is at temperature. In fact, I don't even run a choke spring on my Q-Jet because I never drive my car cold; the choke is wired open. I have full Stewart-Warner instrumentation, including a trans temp guage, so I know what my power plant is doing at all times. At 5200 RPM I have slightly over 55 lbs of oil pressure.

    So, I guess to be on the safe side, I'll pull the spring on Saturday morning and see what color it is because the last thing I want to do is replace a strong running engine because of an oiling issue.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2006
  3. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member

    Paul,
    I didn't mean to suggest that you beat on your motor when it is cold, but I have seen some guys do it, and I am amazed that they would do something like that, especially with a Buick engine.

    As far as your spring is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Even if you have the white spring (Stage1 spring), with the stock pump, you'll likely never have a problem because you are careful, and warm the engine up. The best setup by far is the adjustable pressure regulator from TA. As far as I'm concerned, every Buick engine should have one. It uses a stock (40 psi) spring, and allows you to tailor the preload to your particular engine. Some engines require more preload to make the same oil pressure that another engine makes with less.
     
  4. copperheadgs1

    copperheadgs1 copperheadgs1

    I have tried the adjustable now with the stock black spring and even with the adjuster turned way in it does not make as much pressure as with the white spring and factory nut. i get 70 PSi with the white at 5500. The adjuster with the stock spring starts at a lower pressure when engine is first started(60 as opposed to almost 80). I do not trust it enough to rev it. I have a stock pump with a booster plate with good clearances and all bearing clearances are correct for Buick 455.
     
  5. copperheadgs1

    copperheadgs1 copperheadgs1

    Just to be sure I have the right black spring does anyone know the length of this spring?
     
  6. Electrajim

    Electrajim Just another Jim

    I have a TA front cover, with the supplied pressure spring. I haven't pulled it out to check the color yet, but my pressure seems TOO high! If I keep backing this thing out, I think it's going to fall out of the pump assy.

    I have a new rebuild. About 100 miles on it, rods and mains set at "15 thou", Rotella 15-40 (can't seem to find the thinner grade around here) AC oil filter.

    At idle, 170 deg. coolant, AND the adjuster screw about all the way out (feels like there is no resistance against it) I get at least 57 PSI at the rear of the block and 64 PSI at the oil pump.

    What do you think is up...besides my blood pre$$ure? LOL

    I've got the fear of too much oil pressure in me!

    Breaking in a new engine can be stressful cant it? :puzzled:

    See you at the GS Nationals >4 days!

    ElectraJim
     
  7. BQUICK

    BQUICK Gold Level Contributor

    Jim
    The adjuster has nothing to do with hot idle pressure. What do you have when you rev it hot (hot oil, not water). Your tight clearance are making your good idle pressure. Hot oil and revved up I like to see 75-85 lbs. Anything over 90 is excessive IMO.
    Try a 10-30 oil now that it is past the critical breakin time.


    Bruce
     
  8. Electrajim

    Electrajim Just another Jim

    Ok, I'm partially confused now. I didn't know the pressure relief spring/piston would know what the "hot idle pressure" is anyway.

    I have never measured my oil temperature. Not sure many people do. If so, what OIL temps to you people usually measure?!?!!! Guess I need a 2nd temp gauge, along with my 2nd oil pressure gauge (sigh). Recommend a place to install an oil temp sender...anyone?!?

    I'm not hitting the "revved up" mark yet. Still being gentle with the new build,
    trying to follow this breakin link the best I can, and I'm not even close to the recommended miles.
    I'm sticking to 2 bbls for awhile. It's hard not to get into all 4 :Brow: . Waiting for next week in BG, KY.

    Should I just switch to 10-30, any brand, and not worry about anything?

    ElectraJim
     
  9. NJBuickRacer

    NJBuickRacer I'd rather be racing...

    Trust me, "high volume" oil pumps are the reason for many a GN motor teardown...
     
  10. LARRY70GS

    LARRY70GS a.k.a. "THE WIZARD" Staff Member


    Jim,
    Your oil will be at operating temps after driving for about 20 minutes on the highway. You need to actually drive the car, not idle it to get the oil temperature up there. No need for a temperature gauge for the oil. When you first start the motor, it is normal for the oil pressure to be high, 70-80 psi, even at idle speeds. As the oil temps come up, and the timing cover expands, you should see a pressure drop off. The oil pressure relief spring limits the top pressure the pump will make. The adjustable regulator adjusts the preload on the spring. Sounds like you have tight clearances and good pump clearances. Try using a lower viscocity oil, 10/30 or even 5/30. If the pressure never rises above 75 psi hot when the engine speed is at your wide open throttle shift point, you are OK. Tell us the pressure at various engine speeds with the oil hot.
     
  11. iacovoni

    iacovoni The Buick.

    I wish someone could tell me the spring rates per color. I have like 4 different colors (white, black, red, green, grey) I had a green one in there, it was a shorty with tight coils. Each are different length and what not. Pressure is still high did not pay much concern, but I am wondering if it caused a slight leak in my front seal? Theory here is to reduce the pressure to see if the "leak" would stop. I switched to the black (no color) spring and pressure still soars when under high rpm and the oil is hot(about 75 psi) and 62 when driving normal. Plan is to cut a coil or two off the black one (I think it is stock) and see what happens. Idle pressure is awsome. If I cut too much off I can turn the adjustment in, cause as of right now it is all the way out.
     
  12. Bobb Makley

    Bobb Makley Well-Known Member

    I love post like this they tend to cause more issues than if not posted at all. There are many different combos that require different set up we use a adjustable regulater but I can tell you that I have seen combos that like more spring. I will also say I was contacted by a customer this week that had a pump where the port for the regulator was a different lenght by a guarter of and inch causeing the spring to be tighter than on another cover. I don't know if this is were the issue come from but I plan on checking a bunch of filter adapters to see if there is some kind of issue there.
     
  13. iacovoni

    iacovoni The Buick.

    Still, do you think the high pressure would cause oil to seap out the front crank seal? Or, is there another issue............... Not enough leak to fall on the ground, but enough to get some visuals on the front of the pan seal. I think I am getting to anal at this point, but been working on this motor too long to enjoy. I just want to get to Martin.
     
  14. DaWildcat

    DaWildcat Platinum Level Contributor

    Joe, are you running the oil slinger in front of the crank's timing gear? This should be a pretty effective shield for oil pushing past the 1st main bearing.

    Devon
     
  15. iacovoni

    iacovoni The Buick.

    You know, I can't remember, I believe so? The leak started after a cold start and the oil filter exploded. I been fiddling around with my dist., now I am able to move on to the high oil pressure. It is border line fine, but all this talk about heavy loads on the bearings got me thinking. As I was messing with the pump is when I noticed the light glaze of the 10w30.Any thoughts
     
  16. alan

    alan High-tech Dinosaur

    That sounds more like crankcase pressure.
     
  17. Buick Power

    Buick Power Well-Known Member

    Oil pressure has nothing to do with most oil leaks, especially front & main seals. Like mentioned crankcase pressure is the main cause... make sure your PCV and a breather are working properly. If it only leaks when you drive it, that might indicate that the slinger is not there and the oil rushing forward when breaking overwhelms the seal. That is more common with a rope seal as modern split seals are designed to seal more firmly when overwhelmed with oil, that's what the split does, fills with that oil and forces more pressure on the balancer. If the balancer O.D. has been altered you might have to live with the leak. Some engine builders do not like the knurling on the balancer at the seal area and they machine it off actually causing more issues.

    WRT the relief spring issue. The blackish (natural steel) color spirng which should be one of the longest and has generous space between the coils is the main one to use. There are a few different pump covers out there especially the metric years can have a longer relief spring passage. In most cases that spring is fine the way it is. One thing you can do to see what you will have when it is installed is to measure the depth of the relief spring passage then compress your spring to that length, you should still have enough gap for the spring to compress when the valve opens. If it is already at or near coil bind then you can clip a coil at a time.

    It usually takes about 100 psi to blow an oil filter. Better filters like a K&N will handle more this is a benefit so you don't find yourself in trouble on the road or track. However you still want to solve the problem of the excessive pressure.

    Though this is a revisited thread, there was some discussion originally that questioned pressure of a TA assembled timing cover/oil pump unit. The TA units generally will make high pressure... this is a caveat to the other combinations because the TA unit is so efficient that less pressure is lost, however when it is done this way there is none of the excessive loads on the nose of the cam.
     
  18. iacovoni

    iacovoni The Buick.

    Now that you mention it, I did install the split seal, but no slinger. That would make sense. Seapage is fine, its the oil spot on fresh concrete that blows. Seems like after I fix one leak, another one pops up. You start to get dilerious as you fix one problem and another arises. I swear some motors are just doomed and that is the nature of older cars. Will check the crankcase pressure though, thanks.
    As for the cover, there was some machine work and may have made things tight but the measurement of the cavity is a good idea. Easy enough to do. After the filter blow, I did order some stronger cased K&N filters.
    Thinking this thing through, does the spring rate stay constant as the valve has pressure applied, or does it increase? so if I removed a coil or two that would take the initial pre-load off thus lessoning the overall rate, or does it just eliminate bind?
     
  19. Buick Power

    Buick Power Well-Known Member

    Cutting coils will reduce the pre-load on the relief valve, that is why it is not usually recommended. The goal is to keep the valve closed long enough to give adequate oil pressure but to allow the valve full travel when excess pressure needs to be relieved.
     
  20. iacovoni

    iacovoni The Buick.

    Update. Got some springs from Finish Line in Freeport. I really need to thank these guys and owe them big time.
    Out of all springs, I took a stock one and cut about a coil and a half off. This gave me good oil pressure and kept me right at or just below 75 at WOT. Before it would bellow over a 100. All hot, idle 15 to 22 , normal driving 40 to 55. WOT 69 to 75.
     

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