Art, Bitcoin, stocks, classic cars, what are they worth?

Discussion in 'The Bench' started by 66rivnail, Jan 12, 2021 at 7:40 PM.


    STAGE III Lost Experimental Block

    Oh yessssssss she is tweaked, the convertible top wouldn't even latch up to close along with several other issues and was "just" a Glorified Skylark (GS)but literally started out as a Skylark but the owner loves it so more power to him : ) He will fix it
  2. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    I don’t care much for money, but a lot of the things I do care for cost money. Therefore I pick and choose how I spend and invest in order (for me and my family) to be secure and happy. Some things are investments, some are expenses, some are discretionary purchases. If I want something I decide to buy it based upon my math, not someone else’s. Other than issues of personal pride (wearing dress clothes when appropriate, being clean, cutting the grass, washing the car) I don’t really care what others think about me.
    Other than being a great system that sets the most fair pricing for goods and rewards hard work and intelligence better than any other, capitalism has no bearing upon my wants for goods.
    But go ahead and blame an economic system for whatever you think is wrong. If we were communist or socialist, you’d be paying (black)market prices for meat or fuel or whatever else is scarce due to the inefficiencies of government run providers. You wouldn’t have time or money to worry about art or NOS parts (for your government provided hovel or your waiting list crapbox car).
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 5:16 PM
    6769RIV, Topcat, docgsx and 2 others like this.
  3. BYoung

    BYoung Stage me

    So this poster hits the forum with a drive-by and doesn't come back to join the conversation. Sounds to me like a troll with an agenda.
    GSX10/10, 6769RIV, 446379H and 3 others like this.
  4. Stage 2 iron

    Stage 2 iron 475 IRON HEAD STAGE 2

    Oops I burnt the popcorn. L0l
    Guy Parquette, OHC JOE and BYoung like this.
  5. 66rivnail

    66rivnail 1966 Riviera

    Not a troll nor do I have an agenda. Mainly I was venting about the current state of capitalism and the multiple asset bubbles I see. Probably using the NOS parts example was not the best. Its just that I'm having a hard time getting my head around the massive price increases in everything around me. Collectibles, investments, land, etc. I just don't understand the psychology of it all but what someone else pays for something should really be none of my business nor should I judge those who choose to make their own financial decisions. I have free will and if I don't want to participate so be it.

    docgsx likes this.
  6. theroundbug

    theroundbug Well-Known Member

    When you forcibly handicap an economy from functioning it tends to inflate the value of money, which drives up equivalent prices while at the same time increasing the value of assets. That’s capitalism functioning the way it’s supposed to. The problem is we have politicians playing with it for their own gain. Their paychecks are not affected by the market. At all.
    Guy Parquette likes this.
  7. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    Actually, their checks are affected by the market. Sometimes it takes a while-quite a few took haircuts due to Covid’s impact on the market, which was partly due to their initial response. Others sold before the crash (resulting in them taking a hit to their image and possibly future income-two Georgia senators are headed home now). And look at how many legislators learned this week that their political stances just cost them big donors. What goes around, comes around. Some wheels just take longer.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021 at 5:38 PM
  8. Brandon Cocola

    Brandon Cocola Well-Known Member

    Here is the thing you can take life easy and not go far or you can make some money and do some fun stuff and have some cool things. If you look at it too too much you will drive your self nuts. Some people save there whole life waiting to enjoy it in retirement and not live to see one day of it.

    You have to do what makes you happy. Because if you are not doing what makes you happy no one else will.

    Don't get me wrong some prices are ridiculous just because some wants to get rich because something is popular even though they don't have any interest in it other then making money.
    Max Damage and docgsx like this.
  9. 446379H

    446379H Active Member

    Will you take 79K ?
    Guy Parquette likes this.
  10. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    "Art is simply canvas and paint" - Absolutely not true. Art is the skills of the artists; the canvas and paint are simply the tools that the artists work with. I don't know squat about bitcoin so I'll pass on that one. "Classic cars are metal, plastic, and rubber" - Not quite, a classic car is what you describe, but assembled in a particularly desirable manner, typically with excellent performance, quality, and styling. Again, the materials are simply the components that the builder uses. Most cars will never be worth significantly more then their transportation value. I do agree with your description of stocks, but that's the whole point of them. I own a very small part of Exxon Mobil, and that makes me an entrepreneur. Profit is the reward for an entrepreneur's willingness to take a risk. I took that risk and four times each year I get a check for my small part in taking that risk. The first sentence of your second paragraph may well be true, but it is the basis of practically every economic system. I was once asked the following question: If there was a total, worldwide, economic collapse, and money became worthless, would you rather have a gold bar or a can of corn? Both have great value; Gold is just about the best electrical conductor and has many industrial uses. It's rare and valuable, but it won't keep you alive. A can of corn will.
    As to expensive NOS parts, if I had a great, new N25 bumper, you can bet that I would want far more money for it then it's utilitarian use. A sale occurs when a buyer and seller disagree on the value of something. I realize that this flies in the face of conventional wisdom that a sale occurs when a willing buyer and a willing seller agree on an item's value, but in the case of the N25 bumper that I am hypothetically selling, the price will be the minimum amount of money that I would rather have then I would the bumper; if the buyer goes through with the sale, he or she would rather have the bumper then the money.
    Capitalism is not what you describe - I'm not in a contest to show anybody how I'm doing; I can afford a new car, but my daily driver is 16 years old and needs paint. I do not care what someone I have never met thinks about me, and I don't believe that anyone in our family does either.
    Capitalism will have it's ups and downs, but it has been described as the worst economic system ever - except for all the others. The state of New York has about a tenth of the population of Russia, and yet has a higher gross economic product. It's average resident enjoys a far better lifestyle and can reasonably aspire to a vastly more productive career then can the average Russian. The Russian government controls the Russian economy. The New York government does not. Where would you rather live?
    Sorry for the length. Please don't turn this political; I dealing with the economy only.
  11. theroundbug

    theroundbug Well-Known Member

    Capitalism = your choice of classic car
    Any other system = Trabant

    Modern? F350 with all the bells and whistles vs a Lada with a bed welded onto the back by your cousin Vlad
    66electrafied likes this.
  12. gs66

    gs66 Silver Level contributor

    An old timer around here told me that if things ever hit their worst you would trade a gold bar for a can of peaches. I’m confident things won’t get that bad but his point was you can’t eat the gold bar even if you’re starving.
  13. custom

    custom Got Kenora?

    I'll take Capitalism.
    I'd rather live with the realization and understanding that as a result of supply/demand within the free market system, I may have to pay hundreds of dollars for an NOS part and eighty cents for a roll of toilet opposed to the alternatives under which I may end up paying hundreds of dollars for a roll of toilet paper and left with the thought of owning a vehicle of any type being a pipe dream.
  14. Nailhead in a 1967

    Nailhead in a 1967 Kell-Mnown Wember

    Tell that to this guy:

    He Forgot His Bitcoin Wallet Password! (Worth $220,000,000!)

    Programmer has two password guesses left before losing $266M in Bitcoin
    The perils of inaccessible digital wealth — potentially lost forever — are being all the more keenly felt during the 2021 bull market.


    A German-born programmer in San Francisco has now used up eight of 10 password attempts he has to unlock the hard drive containing the private keys to his Bitcoin wallet, which contains 7,002 Bitcoin (BTC).
    As of press time, those holdings would be worth $268 million — that is, if only they were accessible.

    As a New York Times profile on Jan. 12 outlined, Stefan Thomas uses a hard drive called an IronKey, but lost the paper on which he wrote down the password for the device "years ago."
    If Thomas fails to remember it, 10 failed guesses will result in the drive encrypting its contents forever.
    He has, so far, tried eight guesses with no luck.

    “I would just lay in bed and think about it.
    Then I would go to the computer with some new strategy, and it wouldn’t work, and I would be desperate again.”
    Nearly 20% of all existing Bitcoin — 18.5 million BTC — is thought to have been lost for good, in so-called "stranded" wallets, according to Chainalysis data.

    Thomas is not alone in his self-avowed desperation: a Los Angeles entrepreneur, Brad Yasar, told the Times that over the years
    "I would say I have spent hundreds of hours" trying to get back into inaccessible wallets.

    Yasar has stored away his hard drives "in vacuum-sealed bags" so that he is no longer "reminded every day that what I have now is a fraction of what I could have that I lost."

    Neither story is uncommon:
    Wallet Recovery Services, a company that specializes in recovering lost digital keys, reportedly gets 70 requests each day from clients seeking help.
    That number is three times higher than it was before the bull market.

    Thomas's experience has apparently turned him off the concept of a technology that places the onus on individual users to take their finances into their own hands — with all the freedom, and risks, that it entails.
    Having originally received the 7,0002 BTC as a gift in exchange for producing a video to educate people about the currency,
    he's now skeptical about leaving users with that degree of control:

    “This whole idea of being your own bank — let me put it this way:
    Do you make your own shoes?

    The reason we have banks is that we don’t want to deal with all those things that banks do.”
    Aside from his extraordinary losses, Thomas nonetheless held on to enough Bitcoin over the years to make a fortune — he is reportedly so wealthy that he barely knows what to do with it, to paraphrase the report.
    He also later joined Ripple and acquired XRP, although the company's recent legal difficulties may now cast a shadow over the project's future prospects.

    The report notes that similar risks exist when users entrust third-party custodians with their keys — citing Mt. Gox and other industry crimes
    but does include input from those who believe the trade-offs of digital currency are, at the end of the day, worth it.

    An entrepreneur in Barbados, despite having lost 800 BTC in the past, claimed that "the risk of being my own bank comes with the reward of being able to freely access my money and be a citizen of the world."
    His view, from a corner of the globe where financial inclusion remains a concern, provides an insight into why many individuals may continue to think likewise.
  15. custom

    custom Got Kenora?

    Two guesses left...
    Smiley choose wisely grasshopper.jpg

  16. 66electrafied

    66electrafied Just tossing in my nickel's worth

    From nothing comes nothing. That's a constant.
    Well, the nasty thing with Bitcoin, if there's ever something like an EMP (solar flare) like there was in 1859, then it will all likely go poof, and then there's nothing. Same thing with most stocks and bonds, unless you have a piece of paper. I've got a few of those hanging on the wall that looked good too, but are now worth more hanging as vintage art than the stock they represented.
    Gold, the only way to have that is in physical bars or ingots. Paper gold is just that, paper.
    So we're down to the vintage car. At least you have something, 5000 lbs of steel and plastic dripping oil and other filth into the environment. But, it's better than paper, with a small investment it can actually take you places, whereas a computer can't, it can only show you the potential.
    So I'll take the car. The problem is, my taste in cars more or less precludes me from ever making any money on them, so it's something that is purely for my enjoyment. No, I'm not one of those people who has too much money to pay $700 or whatever for a plastic NOS vent, but there are those who just have to have it "perfect". My standards are much lower which equals worthless.
    There's only value in something if someone else wants it. We're lucky we live in a system that permits us the luxury of determining what we think is valuable, there are plenty of places where that isn't an option.
  17. theroundbug

    theroundbug Well-Known Member

    If I remember correctly, once bitcoins are “mined” they exist forever. Think of each bitcoin as a possible solution to a math problem. The only thing that can make them go away is if the address of where it is stored gets lost or forgotten. Most people keep them on a usb stick, or written down somewhere so the likelihood of an emp destroying cryptocurrency is very low.
  18. pbr400

    pbr400 68GS400

    Guns hold value. The crazier times get, the more useful they are. Like when the grocery store is out of meat or closed. Other reasons, too.
  19. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    I agree with the above. A shareholder would be wise to print and save the statement at the time of purchase of the stock or bond, and save the latest statement on dividends and or the latest 1099 form. These will have the account number and the number of shares owned. The purchase statement will allow you to prove the cost basis. With that information you're account can be recreated and the IRS will be satisfied when you sell the shares or bonds. A serious EMP will certainly create a major hassle, but all is not (necessarily) lost.
  20. John Codman

    John Codman Platinum Level Contributor

    Probably true but you can't eat a gun. If you think you are going to steal someone else's food, bear in mind that he/she may have guns too. I'm not a Mormon, but I like their idea of keeping a reserve of a year's worth of food and water. The family across the street from me does just that, and there are at least three people in the household that have guns and know how to use them.

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