Aftermarket iron 455 Buick block - Interest?

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sweet, I always wanted one of those...............

(I mean the popcorn eating guy)

 

Hold on there bud...

You forgot the 4-5K+ for the supercharger kit, carb conversions, add to that for fuel system upgrades, ect ect..


and a big case of depends.. p


Actually, I am doing something similar right now for a board member that I built a 625 HP NA motor for back in 03.. and he got a good deal on a SC kit, had a carb that could be converted, and we are using his stock girdled block, STG 2 heads, Sp-1 ect, and by the time he is done here, with the motor costs, plus the other stuff he had to do with the car, he will have north of 8K in the whole deal I am sure.

If I could turn 555 HP motors into 850 HP ones for 5K, I would be overrun.. It would look like that scene from Frankenstein when they were outside the gates with pitchforks and battering rams.. LOL..

That 800-900 HP SC 455 based motor, even with a new $3500 block, is still going to be a 18K or so proposition, to start from scratch, but your correct in saying there are guys out there who could use existing parts to cut down on the costs, and do it reliably.. which we can't really do now.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go pour some block filler into a certain 464's water jackets.. :rant:

JW

 

Honestly guys..

Let's bring the expectation notch down a bit here. While I would like to think an affordable iron block version is in our future here, unless an investor with deep pockets and desire to match steps up here in the near future, it is going to be a while for TA to do something like this.

They have a huge investment already in the new Alum block, and they aren't done yet spending money on that deal.

I talked to Mike yesterday about other stuff, and he mentioned to me the $$ figure he was going to have to shell out here shortly for just the machining costs for the 32 Alum blocks that are going to be ready shortly.. that amount is staggering, to say the least. I couldn't imagine having to write a check like that out of the company checkbook.. Lord knows the one I have to write for the 3 blocks I have on order is big enough.


I touched base with him on this iron block deal. Mike Jr had talked to him a little bit, but he was unaware of this thread.

Unless he wins the lottery here shortly, a few things are going to have to happen.

1. Completion and substantial investment return on the 455 Alum block project.

2. The economy has to turn around. Sales are down everywhere right now, so the timing is not good.

3. The business of course, has to stay profitable, so that means that folks like you and me have to keep buying their products. It's worked for us so far, I remember the first TA catalog I got in the 80's.. It was a thin little thing like the KenneBell one.. but look what it is full of these days. Our combined support of TA over the last 25 years had brought about parts that some of use figured never would happen. The TA Alum block is only the latest and most hi-profile example.


So for them to actually do this, it's going to be a while.. he did mention that he had met, and was becoming good friends with a guy who actually does one of the Pontiac blocks.. they are neighbors I guess. And he was not at all against it, he's a successful business man for a reason.. he's not dumb, he knows that a mid-level HD Iron block would be good for all his sales.

But their hands are tied right now, as far as TA doing it by themselves, it will be a while.

Now if someone else with serious $$ wants to try and partner with them, maybe something could be done sooner.. who knows. I am just a vendor out here like a lot of folks, and not privy to the details of that type of deal, so I have no information as to the possibilities there, and I didn't mention that to Mike at all.. we were just talking in generalities about the need for that mid level type HD Iron replacement block.

 

So, I should call back the car hauler Co. and tell them to bring back the Sporty I was having shipped to you ? ou: :grin:

... I'm no finance guru, but as I stated there seems to be a case of spreading the investment costs across two block offerings than limiting it to one which is more out of the reach of "Joe Buick Owner" and geared more towards the racing crowd o No: There must be 5 ? 10 ? Joe's out there for every SpeedRacer, no ?


... leaving last sunday mornings' cruise, I got caught up with a nasty 69 Nova, a new M5 BMW, a Twinturbo Viper and ... a Porsche GT that wore the badging "FE Twin Turbo 720" (not a 911 ... I was checking it out in the parking lot earlier b/c I'd never seen a real GT in person). I could tell it was going to go down, and it did BIGTIME - I ended up next to the M5 and in front of us were the two super cars - they slowed to about 20 mph, held the brakes while hissing and popping and were gone. The M5 and I took off right behind them and ran it up to tripple digits whit me getting him by about 3 cars - when I finally looked up ahead, the 2 fighter jets were so far ahead, I couldn't even tell who was in the lead ... prolly close to a 1/4 mile up the road and I'd imagine nearing or over the 200 mark. True story - I couldn't shake that adrenaline rush for the rest of the day.

Now, how cool would it have been to Spank both the Porsche AND the Viper in a SportWagon with a Surfboard on the roof rack ?

 

lolololololol

 

Bring that sporty out.. we will get their with some big shots of N20.. and with all that space in the back, plenty of rooms for bottles.. :grin:

Seriously..



Alan's correct, two products will outsell one, but you have to be able to produce those two products.

As I understand it,there would be a completely different tool required for an iron block although I admit my knowledge of casting/moldmaking is limited.

There is so much more material in the TA block, that with the caps and liners, it's about the weight of a naked stock block. Or to put it another way, about 50-75 lbs lighter than one full of grout and girldes.

Even if you could just substitute the materials, it would be awful heavy.

So it's more or less a start from scratch deal.

JW

 

It is my understanding that the molds could be altered instead of starting from scratch. There appears to be an enormous amount of interest in an iron block over an aluminum block for the "average consumer". Question is... is TA listening? :Smarty:

ps. I believe my IA2 block weighs in the neighborhood of 252lbs at a 4.350 bore. A stock Pontiac block is 180lbs - 230lbs depending on whether or not it is full of concrete.

 

I'm likely pulling my engine apart this weekend, which will likely result in purchases from T/A p

 

Well, I don't mean to speak out of turn, and you guys need to understand that I am in no way a representative for TA.. just a dealer..

But I have known the owner pretty well for some time now.

As Jr stated, they wanted to do the best possible block they could.. while they could.

There are no guarantees in life folks.. Catastrophic accidents happen all the time, and people come down with life threatening illnesses.

They saw an opportunity to make a killer piece, a 2000+ HP capable block, from what they felt were the best materials, with the best features.

They took that opportunity, to allow the serious racers to build the big, big HP stuff.. where you could not go, regardless of what you did to a stock block. They did every voodoo trick possible on Rod's stuff, but it just wouldn't last. Works for a while... that's it.

If he would have built that low priced iron block, more than likely all that would have happened is that threshold for these guys breaking it would have just been raised a few hundred HP.. and that's not what they wanted. They wanted a durable piece.

I really don't think it was done just by looking at the bottom line. If that were the yardstick, it wouldn't exist. This is more of a dream for a guy and a company that worked for decades making and selling lots of the "little guy" parts.

They have made that "dream" a reality.

That's certainly part of it.


_______

I think it's just a tad unfair to armchair quarterback if they should have done this alum block, vs a lower price iron block, because they looked into doing iron, and it would have been more expensive, with the contacts they had at the time. So at the time, it wasn't in the cards.

But things change, more contacts are made, and if and when it becomes possible to do that Iron block, both from a physical and financial standpoint, they will do it.

Also keep in mind, at the time, no one knew the Bulldog block project was going to crash and burn. The thinking at the time was "let's build the ultimate piece", because an iron version of the stock block was already in the works elsewhere. I know that for a fact, as I had those discussions with Mike at the time.

____

And also, there is nothing stopping anyone else from stepping up to do it themselves.

Well, nothing but money, and like it or not, it always comes back around to that sticky detail, and we saw what happens when someone has the best intentions, but not the finances.

Also, quite frankly, the iron block I want is not the TA Alum block in Iron.. I simply want a better version of the current stock motor, with thicker cylinder walls, beefy mains and lifter bores, and 4 bolt caps on the center 3 mains. The current TA block has 4 bolt caps on all 5 mains.. relocated this an that.. all of which raises the end price. And for that piece, great, no problem..

One thing to keep in mind is extra costs here... Sure, the block is $3500.. then the oil pan to fit an iron version of TA's Alum block is $600 or more, then your going to have to take the front suspension apart and replace the coil springs, for that 260 lbs of iron.. ect ect..

I want the HD iron block, that looks exactly like what we have, except has the extra 30 lbs of iron in it, at all the right places. Simple, yet effective.

And I think most of you do too.. even if your unsure of the particulars right now.

JW

 

Amen Jim:TU: :TU:

 

I second that

 

A $3500 HD iron block is a great idea! I think it would even generate some additional market because 800-1000hp is becoming a common street/strip goal and it is somewhat known at my track that Buick blocks don't readily go there. I stay right below the threshold of what a stock block can take because I am simply not interested in the bandaids. It's easy to go further and I will when I have a good block. Oil mods, studs, good rods, etc are one thing, but girdles and epoxied valleys are another that keep alot of people away from Buick 455s. I'm in between on this. But this is a fact because it's very custom work and many people just want to bolt something together. I would hope that all stock accessories bolt to this block including the oil pan, but with the addition of the Chevrolet trans bolt pattern that Jim mentioned. It also would be nice if it has priority main oiling w/solid lifter valley because that is very cheap at this point of development, badly needed, and doesn't affect the external appearance or accessory mounting. I wouldn't do any other mods to this block over stock, other than casting thickness improvements and reinforcement. A smaller main bearing choice (3.0") would be nice, but not mandatory.
I was way too suspicious to put down any deposit on a bulldog block. I'm still bothered about what happened to those who did. But I had no problem putting down a deposit for a TA aluminum block, because TA is a worthy business. If TA was taking deposits on this iron block, I would send one in. If some other company that nobody has ever heard of made the same claim, I would keep my money like everyone else and the project would never take off. TA must be involved in this, like it or not. I would like it, and yes I've built 455s with Edelbrock heads, and TA heads so I'm not loyal to any one company. I do like TA though and I would not put down a deposit with an unknown. There are a few Pontiac suppliers that I would send a deposit to, but they aren't going to sell Buick blocks, so that leaves TA.
With my need for 1000hp, this iron block would have been ideal. But it didn't exist so I ordered an aluminum one. I think this block could possibly outsell the aluminum one, and help drive the Buick racing market to generate other things like its own forged crank and so on.
We do need this. We don't need any more street heads, or timing chain covers, but we need this. I can't think of anything that would help the medium to hard core Buick racer any more than this. Up to half of the market that it finds could be a market that it generated. The TA block is going to be awesome, but I think there is room for both of these because the application is different.

 

A $3500 HD iron block is a great idea! I think it would even generate some additional market because 800-1000hp is becoming a common street/strip goal and it is somewhat known at my track that Buick blocks don't readily go there. I stay right below the threshold of what a stock block can take because I am simply not interested in the bandaids. It's easy to go further and I will when I have a good block. Oil mods, studs, good rods, etc are one thing, but girdles and epoxied valleys are another that keep alot of people away from Buick 455s. I'm in between on this. But this is a fact because it's very custom work and many people just want to bolt something together. I would hope that all stock accessories bolt to this block including the oil pan, but with the addition of the Chevrolet trans bolt pattern that Jim mentioned. It also would be nice if it has priority main oiling w/solid lifter valley because that is very cheap at this point of development, badly needed, and doesn't affect the external appearance or accessory mounting. I wouldn't do any other mods to this block over stock, other than casting thickness improvements and reinforcement. A smaller main bearing choice (3.0") would be nice, but not mandatory.
I was way too suspicious to put down any deposit on a bulldog block. I'm still bothered about what happened to those who did. But I had no problem putting down a deposit for a TA aluminum block, because TA is a worthy business. If TA was taking deposits on this iron block, I would send one in. If some other company that nobody has ever heard of made the same claim, I would keep my money like everyone else and the project would never take off. TA must be involved in this, like it or not. I would like it, and yes I've built 455s with Edelbrock heads, and TA heads so I'm not loyal to any one company. I do like TA though and I would not put down a deposit with an unknown. There are a few Pontiac suppliers that I would send a deposit to, but they aren't going to sell Buick blocks, so that leaves TA.
With my need for 1000hp, this iron block would have been ideal. But it didn't exist so I ordered an aluminum one. I think this block could possibly outsell the aluminum one, and help drive the Buick racing market to generate other things like its own forged crank and so on.
We do need this. We don't need any more street heads, or timing chain covers, but we need this. I can't think of anything that would help the medium to hard core Buick racer any more than this. Up to half of the market that it finds could be a market that it generated. The TA block is going to be awesome, but I think there is room for both of these because the application is different.
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David Powell


:gp:

 

All i have to say if this HDblock were to happen it will put buick racing back on the map and Also keeps those people that love buicks but put chevy or other brand engines in them.

 

The poll numbers speak for themselves...well upwards of 70% in favor of making this happen....any update on this?

Regards,

455nGLIDE

 

I've read most of the postings on here. Correct me if I'm wrong...

If what is being considered here is about is strengthening and machining a block the R&D is almost complete.

Research: The 40 years of the iron block it's tendencies like breaks at certain points, not enough wall thickness, oiling, etc...

Development: The block was designed already so bolt locations, heights thicknesses, etc... are predetermined

As a mechanical Designer and Drafter that works with making big compressor parts all day and retrofitting them I have to ask...

So, why couldn't you take a old block get measurements and put all that into a 3D modeling program? First, you would model the existing block and calculate the weight it should end up 99.9% accurate to the reference block. Second, all you would need to change would be things like wall thicknesses while maintain draft angles. Maintaining bolt locations and shaft location is simple. Could even design mock up 3D pan, heads, bellhousing (Chevy of course), timing cover, etc. to make sure they all fit afterward (this would be just precautionary as a proper design would not change any of those)

You need to start at the beginning with a 3D model.This would help the company making the casting determine the overall cost of making the casting, and the of machine work. Not only that, but you could calculate overall weight of the block after machine work. Also, it gives the client something to really grasp the changes and improvements. This would reassure to everyone that no locations were changed in the design.

I would like to add that you can't just have any person make a 3D model. It's a hard program to master, and can be easily screwed up EVEN by people who do it for a living. Not to side track, but personally I don't believe it's a skill that can be learned.

Bart

 

Well Bart, Welcome to V8Buick where I hearby nominate you the 3D Modeling Guru. We've been waiting 40 years for someone with your expertise to come along ...

:beers2:

PS - what part of NY are you in ? We have a VERY strong Buick base in the NE region

 

Our pattern maker also completely designs the block in CAD and it is completely 3D modeled with abilities to turn things on and off so you can see inside the block and rotate it around. Pretty neat stuff, I agree you almost gotta have a thing for it naturally to really master it.

 

Our pattern maker also completely designs the block in CAD and it is completely 3D modeled with abilities to turn things on and off so you can see inside the block and rotate it around. Pretty neat stuff, I agree you almost gotta have a thing for it naturally to really master it.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
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I have a nephew that is a machinist(pretty darned good) and he uses Solidworks software on a Haas machine that he has. He taught himself how to use that soft ware and it is pretty cool stuff.
Back to the thread .... any body know of any updates on this Iron Block?

Regards,

455nGLIDE