Can't blame you for that. Something about those coffee can sized pistons I guess...... Somebody close needs to buy your 350's!!
Because if a sbb 350 is built with the nascar take out rods and the crank's rod journals need to be ground down anyway might as well add some cubes while its being done. That .140" of extra stroke is worth 12 cubes, add that to an plus .105" overbore gets the cubes a bit over 382 an extra whopping 32 cubes. Why would it be a diesel with a 3.990" stroke when nascar take out rods can handle spinning faster than a pathetic 6,200 RPM with no worries to even 10,000 RPM(ask gsjohnny), no diesel to my knowledge spins that fast. Going from a sbc 350 to a sbc 383 is a night and day comparison, it should be the same with a sbb with how good the factory iron heads can flow with porting to support the extra cid. It likes a power adder because of the lazy heavy rotating assembly with the stock rods that is unable to make more power below the rod RPM threshold of breaking for its small cid. If you think the extra stroke makes it a diesel then by that logic it already is a diesel because the stroke is already more than the bore is.(the real thing that makes it a diesel is the crappy heavy rods and the crappy heavy pistons that won't let it spin and if it is allowed to could cause carnage) If you don't like the .140" extra do the .090" extra stroke with the .105" extra bore so now you have extra cubes with the bore to stroke ratio closer to what is was from the factory and have 27.5 more up to 377.5 cubes. Extra cubes are extra cubes, they don't care how they get there, the extra stroke won't keep it from spinning faster than your 6,200 RPM(no offense to you but that is a pathetic RPM limit for any performance small block). The extra bore will help un-shroud the valves and give more flow just because the bore is larger without porting will help un-shroud the valves, with porting the extra bore diameter aides the port work that much more. Adding cubes is win win with a small block no matter which one it is and no matter how the cubes are increased. If you want more bore find a sbb that will handle a 4.00" bore and give it the 3.990" stroke and there you go more bore to stroke and the added bonus is it will be 401 cubes. :Brow: Derek
Why does everything seem to bother you...... No one here bothers you about taking the easy route & pumping nos thru your block. Anyone can do that & get quick results, but where's the real fun in that?
Got to disagree with Derek. More cubes thru adding stroke is not always better but with a 350 Buick its about the only way. Spending that much to gain 12 cubes does not make sense to me.
The bigger the overbore the more the increased stroke will add to the cid. At an .105" overbore the .140" more stroke is closer to 13 more cubes, the 12 was with only a .030" overbore. Anyway it isn't worth it if the bore isn't increased with the stroke for the un-shrouding effect that an overbore helps with. It costs an extra $100 over a basic re-grind to have a crank offset ground to add the extra stroke, I would say that is worth the extra 13 cubes to me because I would be over boring to at least .105" over, and with a 4.00" bore it is 14 more cubes. The first block that was sonic tested was good to be bored to 4.00 if Andy wanted a N/A build, hopefully that is closer to the norm with the sbb 350 blocks because that usually never happens when you're looking for a block that can handle a lot of an over bore. The .140" extra stroke gets the little stroker from 368.8 to 382.2 cid which if the take out rods are used it will be about an extra $50 more to grind the rod journals down to the nascar take out rod journal size with the factory stroke so we're talking only $50 more to offset grind vs. factory stroke grind to the smaller 1.889" or 1.850" rod journal size.(= worth it) The nascar take out rods can be sourced often times for less than what a set of ARP bolts would cost to upgrade a stock set of rods, then they need to be installed and re-sized and if its for an higher HP app then beam polishing and shot peening still needs to be done. The eBay rods would need to be narrowed on the big end to .845" which shouldn't cost more than $75.(make sure that the rods sourced are .845" wide on the big end or wider because its easier to remove material than put it back on) So $120 for ARP bolts for the factory '73-'80 rods, around $20 per rod for re-sizing = $160 polish beams and shot peen another $150 so $295 in a set of stock rods that can't take much over a sustained 6,000 RPM and only 600 HP even after all that work. Nascar take outs are capable to handle 10,000 sustained RPM and well over 800 HP that can be bought for around $150 sometimes less. So $150 + $75 = $225 that would be $70 less than what can be put into a set of stock rods and still be inferior to the take outs. Put the $70 towards the crank and now its only $30 more to have it stroked! If off the shelf pistons are used the wrist pin holes may need to be opened up but by using the AutoTec pistons the wristpin can be changed for no additional cost.(I think they will change pin size for no additional cost but not totally sure, I am sure that the pin size can be changed though) No one said making HP was cheap and or easy, adding cid helps to raise the HP goals if it didn't the big blocks wouldn't do it but they do. With the BBB guys the 470 is becoming the norm, after seeing what a 370 cid is capable of(420 N/A HP with 8.5:1 compression over 750 HP with boost)it should become the normal sbb build. That is with a 3.840" bore and a 3.990" stroke to get to 369.67 which rounded up is 370 using nascar take out rods. That 20 extra cubes did wonders for making N/A power, with more compression and a cam to match that pre-boost N/A number would be higher if the engine was built to be N/A instead of for boost. That HP number would be closer to or even over 500 HP and still be pump gas friendly, just the little push the little sbb 350 needs an extra at least 20 cid to pump up the power. Derek
No, better question, why does everything bother you that I say. Where's the real fun in adding a Turbo, Where is the real fun in adding a Procharger, where is the real fun in adding nitrous? Try it and find out. No one bothers me about it because it works like the other power adders. Like I said, why make it a stroked engine work with what you have, plus it requires a lot more work that most people do not know how to do. Why do you keep attacking me. YOU specifically get on here just to attack me. Get a life. :moonu: Every time someone asks about building a 350 Buick I hear about this stroked crap. Let's push the new people away by telling them something they do not understand. That stuff is for race engine building, not for the guy that wants to build a fast 350.
The Auto tecs come with Chevy pins to keep the cost down. This requires the same end to be opened up on a stock rod. If the take outs have .945 pin hole it would be same. Would cost more for AutoTec to use smaller Buick size pins. Still don't care for the added stroke. The relation ship between bore and stroke and rod angles get worse. I think thats where the Diesel comment came from. I will say tractor like, rather than Diesel. Makes for a slower accelerating assembly and more torque, not RPM. This might be acceptable but with only 1 engine having been tested this way its really not proven in my mind.
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black there. All you do is attack people on this site. People on here offer suggestions, plain & simple. You always seem to have an opinion, which is fine, but you ALWAYS seem to put down everyone else's opinion/sugestions. :moonu:
The biggest wristpin the take out rods have that I have seen is .927" the sbc size so I doubt that you will find a set that have .945" wristpin bores. The 940" pins aren't offered on the AutoTec pistons is because you're right to cut cost down so they don't have to have special wristpins made that are to the same standard as the pistons that they make. In other words they can't just buy the stock replacement wristpins from Federal Mogul to run in their high performance pistons, especially when they aren't even the right length they need. The added stroke isn't all that much in @ a whopping .140" which is only .070" per side of the stroke, meaning that the piston's compression height only needs to be .070" less to get to the same height as the stock stroke. "The relationship between bore and stroke and rod angles gets worse." You can't really get any worse than how the factory bore and stroke ratio was setup but it works and so would the extra .140" with an extra .105" extra bore. As far as rod angles go, using a 6.300" to 6.500" rod gives the sbb a better rod/stroke ratio than many other brand X engines even with the extra stroke added. The factory R/S ratio is 1.6584:1 with a 6.385" long rod and a 3.850" stroke, going to a 3.990" stroke and a nascar take out rod with a length of the ones for sale now that are 6.450" the R/S ratio would be 1.6165:1 a whopping .0418:1 less R/S ratio. Your theory of "Makes for a slower accelerating assembly and more torque, not RPM" may be true if the rotating assemblies weighed the same. But a stock stroke, stock rod with an off the shelf replacement piston or even a stock piston will weigh much more than a stroked crank, nascar take out rod that is typically 100 grams less EACH than the factory rods and a piston with .070" less compression distance it would need for a stroked rotating assembly. Say the AutoTec for instance are already lighter than a stock piston now subtract .070" of compression distance and it is even lighter. Which makes things even lighter is the wristpin in the nascar T/O rods with the 6.450" length have .787" wristpin bores that will lighten up the pins even further in the AutoTec pistons. The other advantage of the AutoTec pistons are the thinner rings that have less drag that will aide in faster acceleration as well. So now with more stroke and a lighter rotating assembly, faster acceleration can be achieved FROM the extra torque the extra stroke gives the lighter rotating assembly making it even easier to spin. Steve, I know you're a stock class racer and a stroker sbb is probably not for you anyway, it makes wonder why you would even be a naysayer if someone else wanted to pursue that avenue? I can keep debunking your "concerns" about stroking a sbb 350 because there is really no down side to doing it IMO. Lets review, to source a set of '73 or newer sbb 350 rods is around $100(if one is starting with a pre-'73 engine) performance prepping them around $295 so $395 to buy and prepare a factory set of rods to have a chance to not break in a performance build. Nascar take outs $150 plus $75 to narrow big end, so $225 for a set of superior rods to start with for $170 less. Re-grind crank, $200, offset grind a crank, $300. Using stock performance prepped rods with a re-ground crank= $595. Using nascar take out rods and a stroker ground crank= $525. So actually building a stroker performance sbb 350 is $70 less than a standard stroke performance build and the stroker build will have a bullet proof bottom end to boot. Derek
I thought this form was to help answer members and especially new members questions NOT to argue about who's putting who down just because they have a different perspective on what they want or how to achieve it. I think the OP must have been chased away by the bickering. If we're going to disagree (which is just fine) let's respect each other's views.
Seems like everything I say bothers you. But you have done this on other post I have made. I give my opinion take it for what its worth and don't look so far into it. BTW My pathetic 6200 rpm is the limit I give it. With my TA 510 cam it would spin to 6400. Not too many 350's can do that on here. 90% of engines do not go past 6 grand. I would not go this route with the rods unless I was going to build a race motor. I think the parts that are getting ready to come out will compliment the 350 well. It will make plenty of power with out all the stroking done. It sounds like a good idea but is anyone going to really do this.
I can totally relate to what Derek is conveying. I think some get lost in the explanation being technical and maybe it sounds too complicated to the casual enthusiast, but... It seems silly to me to spend ANY time on an inferior component when a VASTLY superior one could be had for arguably the same $$! Now consider handing that collection of parts to someone else to pound on after a likely less than stellar assembly or some serious corners cut somewhere else and you wonder why people cheap out by investing into soon to be expired junk and finally have the nerve to get upset, lol. The only difference between the stroker that Derek describes and the perception of a "basically stockish rebuild" is a little bit of math and some very basic machining, that still costs similar to a crap rebuild and is something to be proud of for both the machinist and the owner! Why would (you) not go that route?!!? It's still getting rebuilt, just with a slightly different protocol. Whether you are the one cutting the parts or writing the check so someone else can cut them the same things have to happen, the machinist follows a blueprint. This is NOT difficult. (well...OK there's some extreme incompetence out there, but forget that. If they can't cut a part to spec in THAT environment, they can't do it anywhere else, sooo...) My comments on longer strokes, different rod lengths, etc. is that the engine itself is much happier seeing slightly higher piston speeds due to stroke, etc. The rewards to the induction system and how the engine operates in a reasonable rpm range VASTLY outweighs any mistakenly perceived setbacks towards wear, strength, longevity, etc.... Nobody is claiming these Buick 350 strokers should go to 10,000 rpms! :Brow::Brow: All these factory engines were meant to be thrown away. It is a gift that some of the basic components can offer a second life and serve as the passionate basis for our collective "hobby". Factory parts were designed to be "good enough" and very much fit into the idea of planned obsolescence. Spare the rod spoil the driver! (or...something like that) lol. On second thought, stop promoting such a cheap source of what could be one of the best crate engine packages ever and hoard these babies! Seriously. Don't tell Hotrod or Carcraft.
I did re read the post Derek made and the math makes it all understandable. It is not much more height wise and I agree that the lighter assembly would make the engine rev faster and would probably last longer too. The Nascar rods are cheap I saw some for 350.00 so they are not that much. It does seem like a viable idea and I will look at it my self if I ever can get to rebuilding the motor. Now I am flip flopping like a politi...... see, I can change my mind with a good presentation. lol This does put the Herch rods on the back burner now does it. I am sure you have to get the correct Nascar rods and not just any. Would like to see someone try this to see how it turns out. I know it was done by Mackley on his 350 but there has been no more info on this motor. I am sure there is a 350 guy out there that wants to try this so lets go with it. I do not think Sonny Seal was running stock rods since he was spinning to 7 grand. Probably was using steel rods. Gary would know about this he is in Sonny's area.
balanced stock rods and c/shaft will do the 7k shuffle all day long. the problem is the rod bearings. they really don't like the beating.
Moyock......where are you? did you leave this thread? come back and help me beat some of these guys up.
He went out to get one of those diesel engines someone was talking about, something about more torque.uzzled:
Now that this thread should have taken that left turn back in Alba-koikey, would it be wrong to suggest that if rod bearings were taking a beating it could be the result of the rod's big end deforming? I don't think "taking a beating" was literally meant, BTW. Obviously that's a whole different issue than the rod's elastic strength. The limits to stroke, piston weight, and inertia have been found with other makes' iron rods as well as GM's other relatively soft forged steel rods. Now we are getting into the territory of making engineering changes in order to get factory parts to hold up to duty never intended. I don't think anyone doubts the previously found rpm limits with supposed good cores, but what would the measure to fatigue life be? Good job on Buick for making the main beam, small end and hinge area of the rod stronger than the big end's ability to keep it's form. So, beyond much better material and design you get a rod that can hold it's round shape better, allowing more favorable bearing clearances rather than building things so loosey-goosey to account for flex and deformation. Talking about aftermarket rods here, of course. There's enough similar rods out there that I would just wait to find the price you like. Availability changes periodically. I resold a few sets from engine projects not fully paid for that shipped out of the country. Seems like there's hoarders everywhere... :laugh:
been racing the 350 for about 12 yrs. no babying it. high temps, high rpm's, 65-7500 we run depending on induction. common part to change every year was the rod bearings. yes, they take and took a beating. down to the copper. using dino oil. all fact and backed up! the current set up, nascar rods,Honda bearings, is now 3 yrs old. also using amsoil. will pull the motor out in march to see what the bearings look like. f85 and anybody else.....are you racing a 350 to my standards, if not, why aren't you or are you just a desk jockey...... getting damn tired of people who think they know it all..........
I imagine he left because his thread got hijacked into a not very friendly discussion that had nothing to do with his questions.
I am doing it as we speak. Heads were just finished up at the machine shop. Hopefully get the block bored out & deck squared to the mains. Measure up & order a set of diamond Pistons. Already have the NASCAR rods. Will keep you posted.....
