Discussion in 'Race 400/430/455' started by Jim Weise, Jun 23, 2003.
WOW!! What's that engine going in????
Crank only... and 28 INCH pounds..
I don't check them with the shortblock assembled, due to the fact I use a thicker extreme pressure pre-lube on the bearings when they go together for good.. so that throws things off a little, compared to those folks who just put them together with 30 wt.
Yes, Rings make a huge difference on turning torque with the shortblock together, and since this is a vacuum pump engine, it will have low tension rings.
This is the latest incarnation of George Sweesy's race motor.. we went to this, when his 494 flexed the crank at 750 HP, and started to hurt #4 main bearing.
This is going into his Tube chassis '72 GS, we are just about finished with in the shop now. You have seen pics of that, and it was my avatar for a while.
He had a lot of runs on that crank/rotating assembly, and decided it was time to go away from the 2" rod journal of a 494 deal, and get the extra cubes while we were at it.
Yea you and I were on different wave links. I was talking foot pounds you were inch. The ring people were telling us that if you can get your engine down under 20 foot pounds as a short block there were so good pony's there so that is what I went for just missed it by a little. That mill sure does look nice though.
AMEN!! :Brow: :Brow:
That engine should make some nice power. Are the rings in those JE pistons .063 or .040? If they are .063 and .185 wide, I have heard of guys taking that ring and having it narrowed for less cylinder wall tension. I believe they take about .040 off the width of the ring to do this.
Also... 2.200 (stroke divided by 2) + 1.4 pin height + 6.695= 10.595. With a deck height of 10.600 that would make the piston .005 in the hole. Was this block checked for square to make sure you dont have a piston out of the bore? Also... with those aluminum rods I hope your running a .060 gasket to allow for piston to cylinder head clearance.
Was there a reason to go with a 4.400 stroke over the 4.500?
With all of you guys stepping up to the plate my little 464 juast aint gonna cut it anymore. Damn I hate it when I have to spend more $$$$$... Good Luck Jim... that sure looks nice!
Crank -- 2895.00
Block work is typically around a G on any 455.. maybe a bit more.
Going 9.90 in the quarter mile?
Hey Jim, you were pretty close on my numbers. 830 hp @ 6500 rpm and 730 lbs ft. of TQ @ 5300. BTW, why the need for all the balance holes? I'm almost positive my crank had NONE. The rod and piston weights were factored in when I ordered the crank from T/A and Moldex machined the counter-weights to balance it. In other words, in my case we had the weights before we had the crank. Was the balance job needed because the crank came second and you already had rods and pistons for George's motor? Just wondering! Later, Doug.
Nah.. they give you a little box of engine gremlins, that keep switching that one piston to the hole that's about to fire....
Not really sure how that works.. but hey, we will go with it..
Every piston is dead nuts at .002 in the hole. We went with .050 head gaskets, even though I was pretty sure we could get away with .040's.. we wont be turning this motor real tight, and that should keep the rod stretch to a minimum. I am planning on no more than .010 stretch at speed, but we allowed .015, with a safety margin of .035.
This car as a T-400 in it, so it won't have to spin real hard on the other end.. due to the need for deeper gearing at the starting line, with a 2-speed.
Crank was available when we needed it, along with the pistons and rods, and I thought the alum rods would be a nice way to go.. and they just happened to be available.
.063 rings.. we are not gonna fuss with them, but I am sure we could squeeze out a few more ponies with thining the rings, but possibly at the expense of ring life. Especially the top compression ring, which is "in the heat". We are using low tension rings, as this is a vacuum pump motor. Also, I am no fan of ring spacers..
Yes, had we planned this combo from the get-go, Moldex would have bobbed the crank properly.
But from the time we decided to upgrade, till the time the parts were sitting on the bench in the shop... was 5 days.. :eek2:
Not a year, like some folks wait for a Moldex crank..
I just picked up the phone, and said.."What do you got for me.. bud.."
Who says it doesn't pay to know "Someone".. :Brow:
Hey look.. I found the other 7 pistons.. assembled and ready to go into the motor, as soon as I finish hanging the crank for the final time..
Jim - can i set up a employee distribution plan where i work so a portion of my paycheck goes into a fund for a motor like that ??
......wait - I want the motor thats made out of recycled Mt. Dew Cans !! The Bright Green should even out do the Yeller' one you did.
did I say DROOOL
is a block girdle something that a machine shop must do.
Since you're a machinist, shouldn't you know the answer to that question??:laugh: :laugh:
I think there is some work needed to be done to a girdle to get it to fit right. It is not a bolt on item.
i am but i have never seen the block girdle and all our machines are for production and can not be used for this kind of work. i make the parts the assembley guy put them together and ship the out so there is no time for gov. work .i just wondered if i could use tools i have at home could do it.
Um, I hope not!:moonu: Otherwise, I want your garage/shop!!:jd:
Instructions for block girdle installation:
Jim, how many runs do you think you`ll get out of the rods. I dont understand what you mean by the deck height changing. How come moldex didnt make the crank with your bob weight numbers. With that many holes drilled in the crank, your balance job is out the window. It should have been lathed balanced, cut down the counter weights. ( make more power with a lighter crank, less rotating mass) Also, why not go with a 7.250 long rod and a 1.150 compression height. Just wondering.
The crank was not bought with the combo in mind.. it was an afterthought... This motor was together with steel rods, and a cast crank, in a 494 ci combo. at 750 hp, we flexed the #5 rod journal (283 chev size) :eek2: and it started to eat a main.. common problem with that combo, in high HP applications. Some do it, some don't..
So we stepped up to the Billet crank, and it was a "Whatcha got sitting on the shelf" call to TA that got the GRP rods, JE pistons and crank on my workbench in 5 days.. not the year that some folks have waited for these parts..
The holes in the front and rear counterweights are the balance holes.. The crank is internally balanced, and on the nuts..
I assume you think I'm whittleing holes in it, to make it just lighter???
ahhh.. ya... oooook...
Doubt full that we could see any honest HP gain from lathing the counterweights, vs drilling holes to balance... remember, we are talking a 6500 rpm motor here.
The combo worked out perfectly for the deck height we already had, with an O-ring block.
I know the arguments on rod length vs cylinder wall loading, but I will tell you one thing for sure.. with these motors, the shorter the piston skirt gets, the more of a problem cylinder wall scuffing becomes. We open up the piston/wall pretty good on these things, and coat the piston skirts.. this was done after the pics were taken, as that was a layout of the parts for a trial assembly.
I also believe in the David Reher theory of Rod length.. "just hook the crank to the pistons, with the rods, whatever length that takes, within reason"..
Rods should be good for 350 passes or so.. and for this guy, that's maybe 7-10 years. So that's not really an issue, and an aluminum rod will allow the engine to rev faster, and produces less strain on the block, due to it's lighter weight.
That's a good thing for a 800+ HP stock blocked BBB.
When aluminum rods stretch, and don't "come back" to their original size, they need to be replaced. This will show up in an increase........ or decrease ............in deck height. I have seen them go both ways.
jim do you expect to be putting any turboed 455's together when the new block is released? that'd be awsome:Brow:
As with any motor build.. it's a matter of someone stepping up and wanting one.
We have a pretty good turbo background to call upon here, as both Jack Penzemus and Bob Peterson are personal friend of mine, and both are "heavy hitters" on the TR scene.