Ok guys I've got yet another question. Do I ditch the 350 since the block is bad and just go for a 455 and biuld it? I am going to be building a motor regardless so should I put the money into a 455? I've read the swap is not all to hard but will the rest of the car hold up to a 455? Mainly my th350? If I go the 455 rout can I plan on buildings it similar to how I was going to build my 350 like has been discussed in this thread?
could be a lot more power. alittle more work. depending on how far you go can be more costly. are you ready for that is the question. the trans can be built to handle that power. other parts of car could use some work to handle power . parts are 40 plus years old so upgrades all around car should be done. maybe start out slowly. look for a used running engine and build the rest of the parts as needed. you could do a few tricks to a used engine to get it up close to 300 hp and see if you like it without spending too much money and atleast you could drive car rather then dumping loads of money at it and still can use car. just a idea
Bigger power will be easier to achieve with the 455, since your starting with 105 more cubic inches, BUT, you'll be out of the 350 camp, and into the 455 camp, where the same type of build on the 455 is going to be ho-hum, very mild for a 455, nobody is going to notice if you only make 350 hp with a 455 (since its a cake walk to do)
I'm leaning towards the 455 right now. I bought this car as a long term project knowing it would be a few years before it was on the road anyway. I'm only 22 and I already have two other vehicles on the road so it's no rush to get this up and going. I'm fine with a mild built 455 if it will be better than a very good 350.
If I stick with the 350 plan, what kind of numbers would I be looking at as far as hp and torque. I know there are a lot of variables but I'm just looking for a ballpark number
Easiest answer is TQ is what moves our big heavy not so aerodynamic Bufords around. And no 350 no matter its combination will provide the TQ the 455 will without a power adder. If it was easy to run 12's NA with a 350 every body would be, but mid 13's are the norm for warmed over 350's. A New Ford Taurus would give you a hard time on the street. Don't get me wrong there is a TON of potential in the 350 when you fill the cylinders with more than the 14.7lbs of natural atmospheric psi it sees otherwise. But when it comes to.basic rebuilds with some hotrod parts sprinkled in and where bang for buck is important big block wins every time, And besides BIG SMOKEY SIDEWAYS BURNOUTS ARE AWESOME AND COME NATURAL FOR A 455
Here is the bottom line. It will cost you the same to build a 350 as it would a 455. The old adage, "there is no replacement for displacement" holds true, the exception being forced induction or NO2). The larger an engine is, the less it is effected by the size of the cam. A moderately sized cam in a 455 will be much milder in a 455 than it would be in a 350. The 455 has so much torque in stock form that even with a cam, you won't feel the loss of lower end as much as you would in a 350. The 350 block can take more HP than the 455 block, stock for stock. The pan rails are below the crank center line in a 350. The crank center line in a 455 is even with the pan rail. That makes the 350 block better for turbo or supercharging. The 455 block will need a girdle beyond 600-650 HP. When it comes to power production, air flow is king. An engine is an air pump. The more air you can flow through the engine, the more power it will make. That is where cylinder head flow comes in. Right now, there are no aftermarket heads for the 350, but you have several choices for the 455. I expect that to change eventually. The heads available for the 455, right out of the box, will out flow the best most extensively ported iron heads. It will be less expensive to buy aluminum heads, than it would be to have a set of iron heads ported to the highest level. If this will not be a daily driver for you, and you want to have fun, then build a 455. Be honest about your expectations and what the intended usage of the car will be, and you will make the right choice. You can build a nice mild 455, and it will put a smile on your face from ear to ear. If I was you, I would build a small valve 455 with 9.5:1 compression and a small cam. I would then start saving for a set of aluminum heads and upgrade later on. That is totally doable. The very biggest mistake most new guys make is to over cam an engine. They think big is great, bigger is better. Let me explain why you want a bigger than stock cam. The faster you can spin an engine, the more HP it will make, PROVIDING it can breathe at that higher RPM. As an engine spins faster, air must move in and out faster, and there is less time relatively, for it to do so. To make an engine breathe at higher RPM requires that the valves stay open longer, and be lifted higher off their seats. When you do that, there can be more overlap. Overlap is when the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time. This decreases engine vacuum, and makes for the rougher idle. It also bumps the power range of the engine up. You get less power at low RPM, the rough idle, but the engine can breathe at higher RPM to make more power. To get the most out of a bigger cam requires the rest of the drive train to match the cam. You need compatible gearing and torque converter stall speed to get the engine up to the RPM quicker where it starts to be effective. Like I said in the first paragraph, all of that is magnified in the smaller engine. Take a cam like the TA 413 and put it in the 455, and the car will be much more drive able than the same cam in a 350. The 350 will require more converter and gearing to get the best out of that cam than the 455 would. Head flow also plays into this. The better your heads are, the less cam you need to make great power. The 350 will eventually get some great aluminum heads from TA. You can build a mild 350 now and have fun with it, then upgrade when the heads come out. Notice I am not answering your question of how much HP you can make. Remember, you want max power, you have to make compromises. Right now, you will need to make more compromises with the 350 than the 455. Hope that helps your decision
That's great advice, thank you! So say I biuld the 455, I'm just worried about the other expenses there will be. Sure I can buildthe 455 for roughly the same as a 350, but I'm also trying to take into consideration the cost of swapping over and all the other parts it will take. I know if I build the 350 it will drop right back in. I'm still leaning 455 I just need to make a decision and go with it. I know I won't be disappointed with the performance of the 455 that's for sure. I'm trying to find some good threads on the swap but not finding anything all that In depth.
It depends on money spent/what choices you make with engine. But several people have cars here around 350hp/410 torque from the 350. With some having more stock parts than others but still making about the same power. With bigger valves and custom cams some have past that also. Custom cam is only a few bucks more and uses newest technology and ideas. Any off the shelf cam is well outdated. Still works but you could possibly gain more on a custom. You can do as others and go with extra big bore as block tests allow. Either way don't forget that trans and rear gears should be factored into either to get the best performance.
The 350 Transmission will bolt right up. Depending on it's condition and how much you abuse it, it may be fine, or it will go. Tire spin is less stressful than if you hook it up solid. The stock rear, if you still have it is the 8.5, and that is plenty strong. Just build a very mild 455 and you can upgrade the combo when you need to. If you stay mild with the cam, a stock converter and gears will be fine. http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/conversi.htm
I just recently did the swap over to a 455 and have it in the car and still doing finish up stuff. For one frame mount pads have to be changed. Fan Shroud has to be changed out for a big block. The tranny would need to be built to hande a the 455 torque if you stick with the turbo 350 tranny. If you have a two piece factory drive shaft you should switch it to a solid drive shaft, otherwise it could snap on you. Frame mount pads and grade 8 bolts was 120 from TA, building the tranny would depend on if you farmed out the work or did it on your own. I would guesstimate at least a grand for a built turb 350 from a shop. Less if you did it on your own. The drive shaft can vary wildy to depending on what route you go. You can find solid drive shafts from other vehicles and have them shortened to the length you need. I can get a solid drive shaft from a diesel truck and have it shortened for 200 bucks so I know its solid. I'm sure there are more things but that is off the top of my head. So worst case scenario its under 1500 bucks for the 455 to be installed. The built tranny and solid driveshaft are kind of a must if you planned to hot rod the car regardless in my opinion. So technically not a huge difference.
fresh th350's and 400's are $275 to $600 in mine and the OP's part of the woods. Good durable builds that I have beat on relentlessly , but trust me if the trans is healthy just put a $38 transgo shift kit in and give it hell, done it many times
There is also the sbb 350 stroker build option. Nascar take out rods and a set of customizable AutoTec pistons and you can have 380+ cubes if the block is thick enough to over bore it to get you there with a 3.990" stroked crank. With a full port job on your sbb 350 heads and a 3.925" bore that will help to un-shroud the valves for even more flow and a 3.990" stroke would be a sbb 386 cid. Add a custom roller cam and roller rockers to the mix and you would have one hell of a runner! With 9.9:1 compression, a SP3 and the cam to match to run on premium gas and heads that max flow in the 270 CFM range expect over 450 to 500+ N/A HP depending on cam choice. A solid roller would get you more power but they like to be revved when you run those. Andy's block was thick enough to bore to 4.00" but he wants to run boost so we are keeping it @ 3.905" for the good ring packs that are available at that size. The crank shop messed up and only stroked the crank to 3.975" though because Andy wanted to have 2 done and one was already .020" undersize so the guy did that one first and made both the same! That still pisses me off that they were both made the same!!!! Anyway if you only have one crank to do you shouldn't have that problem. Just remember that if you go down to the 1.850" rod journal size that the crank should be heat treated afterwards because only the hard bearings are available in that size. The other nascar rod journal size is 1.889" so the crank can be stroked .100" from 3.850" to 3.950" stroke, with the softer Toyota bearings available for this rod journal size. If you're interested in this option I am happy to help direct you to the parts and the procedures that will need to be done just let me know. If you have a one piece driveshaft then you should be good to go if you have good U-joints installed in it with either engine. I gave a '72 Skylark 350 2bbl driveshaft to a friend of mine that had it shortened(cut and welded back together) and it has survived destroying 2 Ford 9" rear ends! I would of thought that the driveshaft would of let loose before the bearing caps were blown off of the Ford 9", the bolts didn't come off but the bearing caps did! With either a sbb 350 stroker or a BBB 455 build you'll need to upgrade the transmission now or later but eventually you will have to upgrade. Derek
I think this is the place that Dave takes the cranks for heat treating; http://www.eltroservices.com/ I'm not totally sure if this is the place but I remember him saying that they're in Oxford and this is the only heat treat shop I could find there. The processes are explained on their website. Typically cast iron is ion nitrate heat treated or some shops call it tuff-trided I think. I believe its a surface treatment for better corrosion and wear resistance. Derek
Well the more I think about it the more I am leaning back towards a 350. I know it will go back in the car no problems, and won't shred my tranny. I think a nicely built 350 will do just what I'm looking for, a nice cruiser but if I do stomp on the skinny pedal it will go. Yall probably think I'm crazy for not going right to a 455. I can find 350 blocks for next to nothing, if I buy a 455 I'm already 300-400 bucks in the hole.
That is fine, but remember what I said about cam choice. It is much easier to overcam a 350 than a 455.
I look forward to hearing about your success with a mild 350, they are well designed engines! Be sure to get the pistons setup to zero deck or level with the deck of the block so that you can bolt on a set of TA heads later when they come out. The new heads will be a closed chamber design so you will really want the heads at zero deck to get the most out of it.... Plan for the future, build a solid foundation, and have fun! Also keep in mind the light weight of the 350! They are about 450 pounds stock, and with alum intake, and the alum heads they will be very light. I know a stock intake is about 53 pounds and my single plane intake is about 13 pounds... Not sure what the TA intakes weigh.
I'm not sure if you have read this while thread, but what are your opinions on my 350 plans. I'm planning on 9.5:1 cr, crower level 3 cam and springs to match. Then mild head work, just cleaning up casting imperfections. Will that make a decent combo?
