Did you all know that if people all bought American made(and I don't mean American built and assembled) cars,our country would not be in all the money problems(taxes and budget issues). Just think,if this were the case,we all would not be paying the high taxes imposed on us. Plus,look at the good you'd be doing by keeping Americans in a job and working. Just food for thought.
That's a good thought but hold on to it. Do you know that vertually everything you buy has some part of it made overseas and that includes Detroit iron. It is not our fault, the fault lies with thr greed of American buisness men and their bought and paid for politicians. Ted
I guess the real question is.... What car are you suggesting is "American made"? I know of about 12 Honda (and Honda related) plants within an hour of me right here in Ohio that employ thousands of Americans. I've been in the industrial automation field since 1989. And almost every "huge" project I've done has been for a Honda plant, or Tier 2 & 3 Honda supplier plants. I'll probably never own a Honda, because their just not my style. But I don't think I could bad mouth the company (as far as the economy goes). Their plants are always very nice, they treat their employees good, and they like to $pend money on automation to help their employees. GM plants are so "union controlled" and "good ol' boy networked" that they will never change. Of course... I'm just talking about only my perception of what I've been dealing with for 15 years. I'm sure there's exceptions both ways. o No:
Provide Jobs, Yes.....but the profit made from the car sales doesn't stay on american soil long. Another industry thats probably even worse is the electronics industry. TV's, Radios, almost ALL consumer electronics is either made overseas or is owned by an overseas corporation.
...and this "truth" is backed up by?? Sorry, we can't all make money doing each other laundry. Today in Canada they're planning to lower interest rates to help the economy... the economic mess runs much, much deeper than one or two problems
If the American car manufacturers had not started producing the garbage they did in the 70's and on then we all probably would be driving American cars....why reward the guy that sells you garbage! The US manufacturers could not handle the competition (at the time)--so they lost--just like it should be. Fortunately we seem to be regaining some quality as many of the cars supposedly will go "head-to-head" with the competition---only time will tell. Our economy would be better??? Add up all the additional costs people would have had repairing the American junk vs the more reliable Japanese brands had they been only driving American and I doubt we'd be better off---maybe the dealers would have been better off after emptying the American public's pockets with incessant repair bills---but the average American would have had less disposable income after spending the extra $$$ to keep the American car running--it boils down to cost per mile. Face it--the Japanese lit the fire under Detroit---if it had not happened then I suspect we would not be driving cars that are as reliable as they are now----Detroit already proved that when they built what they did when there was no competition. Competition is good---many times it's the only thing that will force improvement and innovation. Patton
I don't know about you.... but I've never seen any of the profit from the "big 3" in my mailbox ... or any of my friends mailboxes for that matter. The owner of GM takes a 30 days cruise to the Bahamas The owner of Honda sends the money to Japan What difference does it make to me or my family? However.... providing jobs helps "the little people" every day. o No: And Alan.. I'm not arguing with you. We have no control over any of this. I have no economic solutions to offer. I'm just being devils advocate here. :beer
It isn't entirely greed Ted. Blame it on the corporations as well as the US society itself... In a capitlist society public corporations are forced, by shareholders, to turn a profit each quarter, and usually a higher profit than the quarter before. The trouble is, the USA ia a mature market. There aren't too many new widgets being invented, so sales are generally flat. So corporations are forced to look elsewhere to increase profits. Where can they find it? In labor costs. The cost of union labor is so high that US corporations are forced to ship jobs to markets with cheap labor (anyone remember Ross Perot's warnings about NAFTA?). Should a person with no education and no marketable skills really earn $40,000 - 50,000 a year, plus benefits?
I have the same concern when it comes to the manufacturing sector. But sometimes it works both ways. I've spent the last couple years building up annual technical support service sales in China for our products to about $25M. Most of the software engineering cost comes from people based in USA and UK. The Buick I lease in China was built in Shanghai. But I've gotta think that USA is charging China for design engineering being done in USA through royalties etc. You actually see a lot of Buicks Regals on the road in Beijing and that's gotta help US GM even if in an indirect way.
Produce quality products at competitive prices. Just that simple. American auto makers are suffering the effects of a hangover from a drunk 20years ago. Just this year did an American maker get into the top 4 for initial Quality for their entire line (Cadillac). And if I were to replace my wifes car this year I might just buy a Cadillac, unfortunately she's got a ways to go on her current car (2003 Acura CL). Now whether buying american maker car's would solve our economic woes....?
Do you own any of the BIG3 Stocks ?? If not, then why should you see any profit in your mailbox ?? Corporate Taxes.....where does the American coporate tax money go Vs. the Non-american based company ??
Excellent point Yardley, I've been saying that for years! The unions (UAW) have driven the cost of labor past the point of being anywhere near reasonable in the auto industry. I used to hear stories when I worked for a GM tier2 supplier about loading dock workers only having to unload 2 trucks in a 8 hour shift, due to their union contracts. They would spend the rest of their "work" day sitting around playing cards. The drivers that shipped our product to them witnessed this all the time. I suppose in a way you have to wonder why GM didn't stand up to this a long time ago, but when these practices began times where probably still good and it was easier to go along than fight with the union. But it's no wonder the big 3 are sending more and more jobs away from union control. The UAW is costing Americans a lot of jobs by their refusal to negotiate fair and reasonable contracts.
Good point Alan. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. I'm not into the stock market at all (unless my 401K qualifies me as a "stock marketer") p But along that same thought path... couldn't you buy Japanese company stocks? Then some profits would stay here in the US? How ironic would that be if all the Japanese companies were owned by US stock holders. :laugh: But on a serious note... I've said it several times in the last year here.... the unions are killing the american economy. Darrens example is all too true. I've seen it in many variations in almost all union plants over the last 15 years. I'm not knocking all union employees. There are also plenty of very hard working, dedicated, caring, union workers out there that I'm proud to associate with. But from my experiance, the majority are abusing the system, and don't care because their jobs are VERY protected by the <s>mafia</s> union. The unions have found themselves so intertwined with the federal government, that not even uncle sam can stop them anymore. Jeeze, look at the "ship dock unloaders" did in CA last summer. They about shut the country down. I would have fired them all and hired people that WANTED to work. I am a very reasonable person. I would love to hear from some union workers here about why the unions are good. Or what exactly they are good for now-a-days. They were started to protect the worker back in the days of sweat shops and cruel, hard, unfair, unsafe labor. Times are a-changin'. We have OSHA and many variations of it to protect the workers' rights. The worker is VERY protected. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post here. No flames please, as I know this can be a touchy subject. But I seriously would like to know what the use for unions is, in this current world, and have an open mind for adult discussion on the subject. :beer
The domestics are the cause of all of their problems. If the big 3 would have been making great cars all along the imports would have never gotten a foot in the door. You can't blame someone for wanting a car that doesn't fall apart. Most people are also budget minded, and if they can get a equal or higher quality product from the far east instead of the US they will. I think it's a shame that the US was once a competative player in manufacturing. Now, thanks to the unions brainwashing labor into thinking that standing on an assembly line is worth $40 an hour, we have hardly any domestic production left. Everyone wants a great paying job, but if we continue to allow unions to price US labor out of the market we won't even be building cars here in 20 years.
A very timely subject. Just last night, I was out working on my '99 Pontiac. I had to replace a light bulb. After I got it all back together, I could not adjust the light to point forward, and not up into the trees (as it has been since we bought it). The power steering pump is about to go. both power windows are broken. I was saying to anyone that would hear me last night "this is the LAST piece of American made garbage I will buy". Greed is the problem on all levels. Unions are destroying profitability of the auto makers, who in turn want to make more off of every car. Nobody I know can go get a job making more than everyone else and doing half the work, unless they are working for an auto plant. And they just expect to keep making more and more money. We all are the ones that pay in the end with a premium priced garbage product.
I grew up GM and UAW. My dad has worked for GM for nearly 40 years and my brother is now working there. I've passed all my testing and I'm on the waiting list as well. Do I think union workers are overpaid? Well, I've been on both sides of this. I know what my dad does at work and I know what I did at work. Did I work harder? Well I believe so. But then again I had 14 years in one plant where his seniority well outweighed mine. Anyone who knows anything about the factory work knows that there are a ton of repetitive, boring jobs. The "good" jobs, ones that dont require as much work, only go to those with the most seniority. Do I think people with 30 years in deserve to have it a little easier than I do after 10 years? Heck yeh. I can't imagine what my life would have been like without the UAW and GM. How many people out there can retire from an employer with nearly 40 years in the same company now a days? Not many. I thank the UAW for that and securing my dads jobs so that he can now retire and not have to worry about where he's going to get the money for groceries. Do I think buying cars from the big 3 is going to set our nation right again? Heck no, there are jobs disappearing everyday in every field. The problems run much deeper than just what kind of car you drive. All makes, models and breeds have there faults. Some just have more than others I can say that I've been lucky with my choice of car purchases lately (knocking on wood) and I will continue buying GM. Plus...the family discount is pretty cool
A big corporation will give you nothing. That is the reason for unions. If you dont beleive that look at any country that has no unions and see what those people get paid. As far as the union labor rates go how come the Dodge extended cab pickups that have always been made in Mexico cost just as much or more than the other companies. Those people live a shabby lifestyle because they are at the mercy of the big boys. I am not a member of any union but if not for them you would all receive just as little as they could pay you. ED K
I work at an automotive related, non-union shop who pays a very fair wage(for our area), treats the employees well and just established a 30 yr. and out policy with benefits for our employees approaching that mark. I think that says a lot for a non-union shop. Everyone has the chance to succeed if they can prove themselves. I'm with you on unions Rick, they had their day and their purpose but that time has mostly passed. I had an aquaintence that embezzled over 10k from his employer through padding his time card. Keep in mind that he makes 50k a yr(unskilled labor), to begin with. The union SAVED his job!!!! This company prided itself be 100% USA but recently opened up shop in China to help offset their high costs here. We recently picked up a bunch of business from a union plant that closed because they were no longer profitable due in part to wages. I feel bad for those people but things are getting very competitive. Too many companies are running themselves out of business. There's lots of other factors playing into it, health care being a big one. Things will never get cheaper, but we(manufacturing) do need to find ways to be more efficient and maintain quaility if we're going to stay in the game and keep jobs here. Man, did I just write ALL that? ou:
