OK ordered valves from Russ, thanks everyone thanks for this. Machine shop and I discussed guides and agreed that it would be no problem to put cast guides in even though he has "never had a problem using the harder bonze versions". He even mentioned the proper way to remove the old guides from the valve side. I bought other parts from TA Performance before knowing about Russ. I will say TA was easy to talk to and the only ones to have moly rings in stock. The rest of the parts were quality as well. Now after talking Russ I'm concerned about the brass oil galley plugs etc. I got from TA. Oh Well hope all is well here. I will be sure to check it out once I get everything back. Also running the questionable EGGE cast Pistons. They measured great but have to see how they balanced. I did score a set of NOS GM lifter, GM stock cam and a steel timing set cheap. I am seriously considering just running these and enjoying what it is 50 year old V8 Buick. With all the information out there on these engines you would wonder how anyone manages to build and run even the most basic rebuild.
The .030" bronze liners, Goodson or K-Line, can be had either smooth or spiraled, they come both ways. Depend on the part number ordered. We've never had a single issue with this style guide repair! On a side note "SI" industries was always off-shore manufactured (Made-in-China) for as far back as I can recall. The SI in their name stands for "Shin-Ichi"!! Try a "google" for "shin ichi valves"?? Also, K-Line is no longer an entity, it was bought out by SBI International a few years back! (Add) I had responded to another post here about the valve stem sizes. By stepping the guides down to the SBC size and using SBC valves you increase the amount of air flow (some) and you "toss" the cast 3/8" Buick valve locks. We always find them broken/cracked! Never fails! Important: if you choose this procedure and are using the liners it is strongly recommended that the original 3/8" guides are totally rebuilt first. If not you cannot get a good "press-fit/final-size" after installing the liners. It all really depends on the budget and the type build! The absolute best method to fit the stems to the guides is using a "ball-broach" setup. Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. You are always much "safer" if it is possible to leave the original guides in place and use them as part of the new foundation. Especially if there are no seat inserts (not really recommended on the Nail castings) or no installing O/S valves. If you work from the original guides you will "hit" the original seats with much more acccuracy.
K-Line never sold to SBI, I still buy inserts and tooling from them. Here's a link to their current site: http://klineind.com/k-line-service-tools/valve-guide-liner-system#/page/1 All of their liners have an interrupted spiral, they hold a patent on the design. Cheap inserts have a bunch of small dimples pressed into them to hold oil. Rapid is one of the manufactures of inexpensive dimpled inserts, and their crap. Shin-Ichi valves are made in Taiwan not China. If you buy basic steel low cost stock replacement from SI, those are what you get. I've been using them in stock rebuilds for 25 years, I've yet to have a failure they ae a great valve for the price. Anything Stainless, Titanium, or Inconel come from Argentina, the same country that Ferrea valves are made in. On Ferrea's behalf I do think some of their valves are machined here in the states. SI sells stainless valves to a lot of people. A customer of mine bought a new set of AFR 210's in 2004 they were assembled with SI valves. He made many low-mid 10 second passes with a 350 hp shot, SI valves held up fine. The SI part number for stock size Nailhead Buick Valves are SEV-2274 Intake and SEV-2404. SI valves come in plastic bags with a paper tag, the tag usually has that number on it. Some of their newer production valves also have that number etched on the stem near the keeper grove. Regardless of who they were bought from if that number is on the valve or bag they originated from SI.
Not true I have been using smooth wall and spiraled for years.Both are still available. http://klineind.com/kl1840a.html SBI and k line have a master agreement on distribution since 2008 read info here http://www.sbintl.com/about.html W
Hi "487", you are correct on the part about K-Line still existing, that was an error on my part, but I'm not so sure they aren't fully or partly owned/controlled by SBI?? We do deal with SBI, I don't use their valves, but occasionally I use their valve seats. The above info, being owned by SBI was given to me by SBI a while back. It really didn't concern me who owned it, so I never dug deeper. I did use the SI line, which to me is still Chinese (also have no issue there) in their beginning but did have some issues and "cut the ties"! I really have no clue about them today. We use/sell mostly Ferrea's valves. We also will not use Manley's (race) either if possible! The truth about the other part about the "spiraled" vs the "non-spiraled" is they are available both ways, this was mentioned just above here. The letter "S" after the part numbers denotes "spiraled" or not. For the most part I will not use the "spiraled" liners! Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. With respect to AFR, they went over to REV a while back, REV was owned by Al L. who was with Ferrea in the beginning. Al started selling SI in his beginning under the REV label. On a side note, after awhile it becomes difficult to follow all the buying/selling of companies between vendors! It becomes very confusing!
OK reply to first question, Properly removed cast guides from the seat through the top of the head. I read this from Tom T. The machinist mentioned this to me before I could question him. We decided to put cast guides in as the cost and install are not much different then bronze. I did order valves from Martin and they came in looking like nice pieces and best price around. Spoke with Machinist today so I can pickup bottom end parts when delivering valves. He said everything looks good had to replace 10 seats as they were beat out and too pitted to save. I questioned this as we discussed this is not necessary for the exhaust seats as they are hard enough for todays fuel. Also questioned cutting seat area can be too thin and cause problems (learned on here). He again said this is not a problem as he knows what seats to use. Is there anyway to check this to verify all is good? Should I have intake valve seals installed or not necessary? Well all this could be true as the heads did look pretty rough. Since I am planning on some port matching I will probably assemble heads myself. Thanks Gary Rainy MI
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER,,,,,, POWER OVER OTHERS SO THEY CANNOT HOODOO YOU....... Get one of the motors manuals for the years that covers your car/engine/trans and then get into it and know,,know the specs.... that gives you a lot more power when you are getting machine work done... it is kind of like when I am in my local Mexican restaurant... I can drop just enough Spanish that they think that I know more than I do.... so I get better service.... :Brow: :laugh: shop manuals dont cost,,, they pay.... and knowledge pays.... I saw a guy bring a cam into a shop to get it ''balanced''.... the tech took the cam, miked one lobe , then another,,, then went to the bench grinder and ground some casting flash off of one side and some off the other side and then handed it back to the guy... poor fella asked what he owed for the ''balance job'',,,, $10,,,, then the guy went out happy that he had a ''balanced'' cam.... Like I said knowledge will keep you from getting into these kinds of traps.... and before all the shop owners start howling,,,, we all know that most shop owners are completely honest,,, but ,,, some are not,,, and some honest shops have mechanics working in them that are not.... i have quit shops that were fleecing the public.... one shop that I worked for sold brake jobs like pop corn... another ,, front end jobs... both to people that absolutely did not need them.... because those folks did not know.... in short,,, you are the one that cares more for your wallet and your engine than anybody else.... learn and you will be far better off.... the more you can do yourself , the less your hobby will cost you....
Although the general consensus is to never replace valve seats in a nailhead for fear of cutting into the water, I have a different viewpoint... A shop I worked in shipped out nearly 100 re-welded Detroit Diesel heads a day. Those 2 strokes have 4 exh. valves per cylinder, almost always with all new seats pounded in. Many of them are cut right into the water jacket. The standard procedure was to pound them in using red loctite, at the pressure testing tank. About a minute in the tank with no bubbles and it simply went down the line. Any leaks and the seat was blasted back out. A new one was re-installed with blue loctite, then some goop from a bottle was squirted into the air fitting for a couple of minutes (while you did more heads), and then back into the tank. Warranty included damage and labor resulting from our failure. Almost never got paid out. One per year was too many. *note: Loctite is not recommended for valve seats due to heat transfer issues, but was used more as a sealant. These engines were mostly stationary, irrigation, gensets, derricks, etc. Shop has to have good procedures to do this work, but it really was nothing special. Industrial work is a different ball game than walk-in automotive machining. Different risks. I like how your shop did a certain amount of work to your heads before committing you to new seats, if I understood that correctly... It's sad in today's age that the customer has to watch over the machinist, armed with the internet or a couple of buddies that built a "motor", back in the day. It's a 2 way street often with poor integrity on either side. This forum is pretty good though...
Doc I try to do as much as possible. I've ridge reamed and Honned cylinders before then Leaked tested valves in wash tank put them together and they run and last. Sometimes especially when it comes to needing the proper "tool for the job" we have to rely on the expert. I will purchase the proper manual. Another wise repairmen once said RTFSM as advise back when I was young, it took some time to figure it out but have tried to follow eversince. I read on here some have had success with Valve seat replacement. I need to know how to verify the seats do not leak, pressure testing?
Pressure testing; We blocked off the coolant passages using mild steel "deck plates" and roofing rubber as a gasket, held together with all-thread thru the headbolt holes. A quick connect air fitting somewhere on the side of the head, and pipe plugs where needed. A dunk in the tank also served double duty to leave an anti-rust chemical for shipping. The 1/2" deck plates were crudely cut with a torch around the chambers for easy viewing. At home you could probably get away with plywood and some c-clamps on a Nail, as there's not as many holes on the deck to cover. You wouldn't really need a tank, as 409 spray would work, just like on a tire. 50 psi would be more than plenty. Think about the pressures in the chamber of a fully boosted diesel for a minute....
Thanks for the pressure testing idea pretty ingenious. OK more discussion and meeting with Machinist. He's actually quite patient with my questions. He showed me how he does it. First, a shallow seat is used second he does not put it all the way down but leaves it up about .015 -. 020. There was something else about the overall size of the seat as well but not sure. He feel this leaves plenty of casting between seat and water jacket. "from his experience". Oh yeah cast guides are spiral cut but not all the way through and being machined for intake valve seal. Heads also needed surfacing .010 to clean them up. I'm back to feeling more confident about what's going on. Now off to start checking out lower end.
Like I said,,, knowledge is power.....:grin: If the valves/seats are correctly ground they will hold a seal.... think about how fast the dynamics in a engine happens... we were taught to put a light film of grease on the valve and seat it and twirl it some and then lift it off the seat and see if the lifted grease is even all the way around the seat.... if it is,, then you have a good seal.... never had one to not seal....:Brow:
