Machine shop said all valves need to be replaced. Looks like they are $225 a set from TA. Any others out there for better price? Also all the guides. He said he has done many nail heads using bronze guides witout problems. I've read this is not good but why? What about springs? He check mine less then 10psi loss would these be ok? I have another set of heads but look about the same. Need to disassemble and see. Any other help would be great. thanks gary
I would suggest you look into another set of heads. I would definitely take your other set in, it might save you a ton of cash..
The valves and guides shouldn't be that big of a deal. If the seat pockets are OK, then I would go get the new valves and guides, but that is me. Call Tom Telesco and discuss the heads with him. He or Carmen Faso should be able to provide the valves, guides, and springs. They are the two Nailhead guru's that I would go to first. Russ Martin is supposed to be good as well, but my personal business typically goes to Tom or Carmen first. In my personal opinion, the heads are not were you want to cheap out. Especially on a Nailhead. They have a hard enough time breathing as it is, with subpar/wore out parts it just gets worse. Can definitely understand being on a budget, but don't skimp out on the heads. Talk to Tom about the right direction to go with the heads. He won't steer you wrong.
I hate to even suggest this...if you just want it to "run" and never use it or keep it a while, and maybe rebuild it right later, then... If the cost of new valves seems unreasonable, you could do a bit of diy... If you don't mind getting dirty you can tear down and inspect. How much of this are you doing yourself anyways? I wonder if you have enough grind-able valves between the two sets? .001" deviation or wear on the stems means junk or re-chrome (no longer practical). Look at how beat up the rest of the valve is, and seats are, esp. the sealing angle. If you pull the valve slightly out of the guide by the face, it should barely wiggle in the guide. While the valve is oriented vertical, it should drop back against the seat freely, but I'm guessing they are all sloppy loose anyways. FYI, I never re-use old springs, retainers, locks, or grind worn valves. Don't re-use old valves in new guides. These aren't CSOB engines...they are old, you can't expect the parts to last forever.
Russ Martin recommends using cast iron valve guides only. Something to do with the way the rockers are set up / move. He is also advertising valves for $160 / set , but that might not be stainless steel ?
The rocker design puts a lot of side load on the guides. The iron guides hold up better than the bronze liners. Cast guides are easy to replace and only cost a few bucks a piece. But... There was a post years ago by Joe (Nailhead in a '67) saying his original cast guides had the holes off-center, and when he replaced the guides with new ones, the valve faces didn't line up and required excessive seat grinding to get them to seal. The original guides in the '64 401 I did a few years ago also appeared to be off-center, but new guides went in without any problems.
I bet the original guides could be reamed to .500, to fit a common .502 guide. BBC's have the same prob with the concentricity of the OD to the ID. It's not recommended to remove those (leakage reasons also)
The machine shop did them for me. The Buick shop manual shows the procedure. Basically use a hammer to drive them in/out. An alignment block keeps them square during install. They will need to be reamed to size after install.
Thanks for all the information. Probably call Martin and get valves. Took a couple of valves out of other set of heads. These are bad as well. Springs are cheap so might as well. I'm saving on cam and timing set so I can put money into these. I maybe going with a roller cam I just measured lift like .432 /.438. I also think I will go with bronze guides. The wear can not be that severe compared to cast guides. Might be an issue if trying to get 100k out of the engine but that will never happen.
I'm at a stage where the heads will be getting some work soon. Now I'm unsure which way to go with guides o No: Do I replace them with original cast iron or have them bronze bushed, I had been talking to the engine machine shop and he did say that be careful replacing guides as the holes can be off centre to the seat. I don't want to have excessive grinding of the seat if that's the case. And I agree with flh73 , I'll never get 100k out of this engine. Tom, help me out please.
Bronze guides is a loose term, and there is many different alloys. Thin wall inserts are typically of a soft alloy and copper colored. Most of the inexpensive brands of these are really soft and do wear quickly in any application. If you are going to use thin wall inserts make sure the shop is using Goodsen or genuine K-Line inserts. Both of these have a spiral machined inside to hold oil and extend there life. I use thick walled manganese bronze, It is alloyed with nickel and very light in color like brass. Manganese bronze is much harder then cast iron. My shop truck has a 350 Chevy .525 lift hydraulic roller cam with 1.6 rockers and 320 lbs open spring pressure. At 65,000 I had the heads off and the guides had zero wear. That cam and springs would have destroyed cast iron guides in 10,000 miles. SI industries in Simi Valley makes stainless steel valves for nailheads. They sell valves to a lot of people and make high quality stuff. Their stainless valves are between $8-$12 each If I remember correctly. Its worth noting that Chevy 1.94 x 1.50 valves fit (Require a .125 shim under the rocker shaft to keep geometry correct) and 300 Ford inline six valves will fit. The Ford valves are 1.85 x 1.56 and about .020 longer then a stock nailhead valve. The .060 larger exhaust is great if the heads have some seat recession. With either the Chevy or Ford valve the valve guide must be reduced to 11/32 to accommodate the smaller stem.
hmmmm...... Lots of ''chatter'' here..... some good ,, some not so much.... stock valve guides wear out in 10,000 miles :Brow: come on..... first, tear down the heads and inspect them and the valves and other components... then,,, clean them up and re inspect .... then install the new valve guides.... this you can do your self with out any problem... just got to have the ''driver '' punch... you can use a common hammer cant you.... then ream the valve guides if it is neccessary,,,, I have installed lots of them and not had to ream them,, they worked just fine... with the new guides installed grind the valve seats... this way the seats will be properly oriented to the guide centers,, yes the seats will be slightly moved some or maybe not... but when you grind the seats it will locate them right... They will not be a quarter in. off to one side like some imply.... :idea2: then inspect the valve stems for wear,, you will be able to see it,,, if the stems are fine, then chuck the valve up in the grinding machine and spin it to see if it is warped,,, some warp can be ground out,, but if the edge of the valve gets too thin , it will burn and you need to discard that valve... if not it is useable... inspect the rocker arm tips,, this is where most of the wear will be... and the shaft bores... both can be rebuilt if neccessary... in the old days , we would put bronze bushings in the bores... but ,, I suspect it would be cheaper to just replace the rocker arm entirely.... check the valve springs and retainers... if they are all ok , use them.... install valve seals on the intake valve only,,, leave the exhaust ''wet'',,, that is why it is entirely normal for a nailhead to have a little puff of white smoke on start up.... that is what Buick recommended... lube the components and re assemble.... and you have saved your self some money and have a quality set of heads... Now if you are ''blueprinting'' the engine,,, there is some more steps , like CC'ing the heads,, polishing stuff ,, ect... but on a stocker , street driven engine,,, the above will work just fine....
Doc I appriciate your frankness in the way you explain stuff. It's refreshinng from the politically correct world we live where the kids sports don't keep score and the adults are not allowed to try new things. I will take some of your advise. I'll leave the machining to the expert however as he has the tools. The valves are junk worn thin so new is the way to go. I'm also ok with the bronze guides. In my earlier life I worked in a local Engine machine shop and realized some of the time there was overkill in many aspects of building an engine. Since springs etc. Checkout good I will reuse these. I plan on completing the head match to "doc" modded intake. Along with recurve distributor. This will be with stock or mild cam with closer seperation. I have a friend just bought a 65 skylark GS and that thing stock sounds good and runs great for a street car. Other cars I've build alway end up too much so not this time. All I have to do now is run with said friends car Thank Gary
Do some minor bowl work to complement the new VJ and modded intake. Huge bang for the buck. Search nearby threads.
Russ Martin recommends cast guides if your going with stock valve train , they will eat up bronze in no time!
Jus bought a set of valves from Russ the other day and yes for 160 and they are his high stainless steel ones. Beautiful
