TSP Level 2A-R Prototype Specs and testing (Larry's motor)

Larry, why didn't you run main studs?

 

Guessing because of these observations...

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=207717

Devon

 

I'd say that's a very good guess. I wonder if the bores would be more consistent after repeated torque cycles. I thik ARP says to torque new fasteners a minimum of 3 times before final assembly. Horespower TV or one of those shows on SPIKE briefly showed a bit on fastener torque using oil, a substance they called peanut butter and ARP's moly lube and the effects of additional torque cycles. It was about 2 weeks ago.

 

Yeah... I just creamed my shorts.....
Jim.. .if I ever hit the lotto....I'm coming to see you... for an engine..:beer :bla:

 

Rob,

My use of the factory main bolts in these motors comes about due to the history I have with this engine.

In the 90's I wouldn't have even considered building a 550 HP motor with the factory bolts. Because back then I only had "common knowledge" to base my parts selection on.

Bruce Crandle, who is the man at Total Engine Sevice who has done my mains for all these years, finally convinced me in the late 90's to build one of my race motors with the factory bolts. He hated the ARP studs, because of two reasons.. A) you had to ream more material out of the main caps to properly fit them and B) no matter how many times he torqued and re-torqued them, he was always fighting them to be able to get the bores to repeat. It has nothing to do with the stud itselt, it's what it's screwed into.

The weak Buick Main webs.

Since that time I have adopted the following policy.

6000+ rpm motors get a block girdle with studs.

6000- rpm motors get the bolts.

Regardless of power ouput.

The only exception to that rule would be the forced induction stuff.- The all get block grildes and filler, or an Alum block.

I would have to go back and count, but I beleive this would be about my 10th motor that has exceeded 600 HP since 2004, and we have yet to have a catastrophic main bearing or bottom end failure with any them.

In this instance, the use of the factory bolts, with CMD#3 lube yielded a near perfect block when it comes to main housing sizes. Only number 2 came out .0001 off the size of the rest of the first 4, which were done right to the middle of the spec, at 3.4385.

I have had excellent luck with the mains once we switched to the CMD lube here this year, but this block was exceptional.

With Larry shifting the motor at 6K or less, I have absolutely no worries about longevity of this combo.

JW

 

Yes, he is pretty excited about how it turned out. TA once again did a great job in stepping up to provide the funding to make the cores, and then getting the right folks and companies involved to bring the good working product to market.

This grind will go in the catalog and on the shelf, although I actually don't even know what it will be called, since it's a custom and just has that non-descript numerical designation right now.. Hopefully they will name it the 413 roller cam, since that is really what it is.

JW

 

Nice build guys. Congrats Larry.

 

Interesting. The guy who machined my mains/bores prefers Manely "Extreme Pressure Lube#3". He said he finds most of the stuff out there is to slippery and is hard to repeat.

Exellent info on this roller engine. I think it's well worth the $ to go roller if you have a need to. Can't wait for the next one.
Ray

 

The knock chart almost looks as if something was loose on the Lunati cam. Is it possible that the cam needs stiffer springs to hold things in check better?

The only other idea I could concieve is that the cam itself has some very minor vibration to it at certain rpms. Like a tuning fork. If that's the case it would be murder on bearings in a street car and would have some kind of "history" by now I would imagine.

Maybe you guys just got one from a bad batch?

 

Manley is selling the same stuff... That's CMD... same stuff we use .. (and a lot of the Nascar guys, so I hear)

http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/2010/engine_building.pdf

JW

 

Honestly, we really don't know exactly what the extra noise means.. could be nothing at all, it's just another piece of the puzzle. Once we get 15 or 20 Buick 455's of all different types of builds and valvetrains under our belt, we will be in a better position to speculate. Right now, that extra noise could be coming from those lifters, not enough preload, the cam profile, the intake valves bouncing off the seats ect ect..

But as I stated, since we have data now from the same engine, with three different cam and lifter combos in it, it does tend to point in the direction of a conclusion, I just need more supporting data now.

Right now I have the following data

1. Excessive audible noise
2. Inability to RPM
3. Knock percentage feedback via the Superflow data.

I am going to see if I can locate someone locally who has a cam doctor or cam pro, and take them this Luanti cam, as well as the 413, and maybe a new melling stock 455 grind, and have them run the profiles for me.

Just for futher information to help enlighten the situation.

JW

 

That is what I had left out but it is what I gotten from those graphs. I would also assume that quiet equals low harmonics equals more valvetrain stability.

 

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier David, as I honestly didn't know the cost to build this beast from pan to carb, as we worked with a lot of Larry's old parts, and he supplied some of the new ones.

But I sat down and figured it out, as well as a 550 HP varient with a slightly smaller cam, less head work, and a performer intake.

That pricing is here.

Thanks

JW

 

Good to know, I had read that a while ago but forgot. I agree that what the stud threads into is the issue. I'd be curious to see bore distortion with seasoned studs and different torque steps, something like... start at 30, next step go right to torque and measure the bore (several areas), do this several times, then 70, 90, 110 and measure same as before. I'd guess going right to torque may stretch the fastener better but may distort the block more vs torquing in steps. And does the distortion change over time? But, I'm sure bolts will still be more consistent than studs in this case and may vary from block to block.

JW, how do you torque the bolts, in steps or to final torque?

Thanks again everyone.

 

Rob,

In steps, 35, 70, 100 ft lbs

JW

 

Those connecting rods look just like my H-beam Carrillo rods,What is the weight of those Eagle rods?

 

860 Grams, total weight..

JW

 

Talk to me Brotha !!

what would be involved for me to switch over ?

... cripes, I wish you were closer. You'd be freshining up my mill and adding that roller lumpstick then dropping in BadBlue after prepping it for duty