Mike says a few things in this thread about his timing cover, http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/ta-cover-vs-good-stocker.260163/#post-2135002 With all the quality parts we get from TA, I'm not sure why anyone would think Mike would do something as underhanded as to buy a Chinese cover, dress it up, and then pass it off as a TA product. Like I said, I do not think like that.
I agree with Larry that would be a shady trick to pull on people just to make a few extra bucks not to mention risking an excellent reputation.
Who said that? I never said that he actually did that, that isn't the point. I just want to know why his cover doesn't have a cast in TA logo on it instead of just a stamped part number? If its suppose to be SO much better, why isn't their logo cast into it? I did insinuate that someone could sandblast a Proform cover and stamp a part number on it and it would look identical to the TA cover. Would be harder to counterfeit if it had a cast in logo though. Even if the logo is on the inside of the cover so they can go on a numbers matching build to be undistinguished from a factory one. But if someone wanted to pass it off for an original, I say let them grind the logo off themselves. If you buy a used "TA" cover from someone, how do you really know its a TA cover? Anyone can stamp that part number on a Proform, sandblast it and try to sell it as a TA cover. Even if the guy has a TA receipt for a cover, it still could of been easily counterfeited and sold as a TA cover, even easier because of the receipt.
This topic seems to be heading g for left field maybe Mike from TA will chime in to get the questions answered for everyone. On s side note anyone have any good tips on what to use to clean the cast aluminum parts (timing cover, water pump, intake) to get rid of the oxidation?? I read eagle one mag cleaner but we don't have that up here in Canada anymore. I'm looking for a spray on scrub wash off sort of thing I don't want to pull the motor apart to bead blast it or anything of that sort.
When I get home tonight I'm going to weigh a Brand New In The Box TA bare timing cover I have in stock. I have a very accurate digital scale that can weigh accurately to the gram. The only thing is that the cover has a front seal installed. Now if someone can weigh up a new Pro Form cover with a seal we can at least determine if their density is is the same. If they are close then it probably means nothing, .... but if it's a substantial difference then we have something to show they are different. I will also post a few pictures of the cover I have in stock as I noticed a few very distinct casting irregularities (two of them on top just to the right of the distributor hole. Larry
You may not have said it, but I got the impression that's what you were saying between the lines. I'm sure I am not the only one who thought that. I do agree with you that the TA name should be cast into the cover. Not sure how big a deal that change would be, but I am sure Mike didn't think that someone would counterfeit his timing cover way back when. The Chinese may have cast it, but I am sure there was an American citizen that colluded with them. I'd want the TA name somewhere on the outside, not the inside. Not sure where you could put it, there isn't a lot of flat space available. I guess it would have to be small.
Yes. I agree, on the outside. If someone doesn't like it there let them grind it off. A good place for it would be just above the balancer hole, right smack dab in the center of the thing. It doesn't need to be a flat spot for cast in letters that protrude above the surface either. I think Proform(now actually Speedmaster but some of the stuff still has the Proform name on it) is based out of Australia so its probably hard to go after them for counterfeiting the cover? Would probably have to get international lawyers involved? $$$
Is there a cosmetic difference for a show car between the oe, nos gm, ta, and proform covers? If so what? I can buy a nos for 500 bare. Gregg
The TA and the Proform have provisions for a crank trigger and the seal on those go on from the outside. Also I believe Proform and TA have different timing scales from the OEM?
Read post #27 by Buick Power from 2009 this may put and end to any controversy...... http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/new-1967-76-400-430-455-timing-cover.180285/
Here's a cut and paste of Dave's post, " The Walmart Parodox. Here is a review on the TA timing cover. Similar processes are used for many of their products. TA put up every penny to develop the timing cover and owns every piece of tooling, core boxes, blue prints and patterns. They have a neat room full of patterns for different components. At least a year of development was involved, and this would be where the majority of Mike's week was spent talking, fitting, measuring, researching, traveling, etc. Original Buick blue prints were utilized to ensure spot on fitment to the block to start. Previous Buick engineers, other engine builders (both Buick & non-Buick) were consulted as were TA's existing modification process being used on OE timing covers. Causes of Buick's oil pump anomolies were determined and engineered out. The TA Timing covers are sand cast by an aerospace foundry of 356-T6 aluminum in the United States. Sand cast and heat treated alloy are the foundation for eliminating the oil pump's problems. Original and all the offshore timing covers are die cast, which is a fraction of the cost and a huge compromise in quality. I remember the pallets coming in and having spec sheets for each run. After they are cleaned up & blasted they are trucked by US truck drivers to TA's facility in Scottsdale, AZ. There, even more tax paying Americans take those timing covers and set them up for CNC machining. There is quite a bit of maching on them, not as much as a cylinder head, but still a solid hour+. Throughout the process they are quality checked. Then the finished covers are packaged in US made boxes. FYI on another investment that TA incures for all of their products/inventory: They are required to do a yearly inventory and pay tax on that inventory, even if it was there last year. For many products it is necessary to do large enough production runs to get the vendors to do the work and/or get a reasonable price that TA has to hold inventory for several months or even longer. On the assembled oil pumps they are meticulously assembled and additional hand work is performed making the pump extremely efficient - solving the oil pump problems that plagued the Buick Big Block for 20+ years. This assembly is so efficient that it is able to support Rod Hendrickson's Alcohol Supercharged engine that produces well over 1000 hp. The photograph in the Proform Catalog sure looks like a TA cover, and it is missing the front seal and dowel pins. Either it is one of the early pictures that I took or they have one and removed those items for reverse engineering. TA has been doing a great job supporting the Buick community and is constantly re-investing. If the (extremely small) market is diluted with distractful (because they are a step backwards) competitive products, then revenue that would otherwise be used for future Buick components is diverted away. As a consumer, you think that competition is a good thing, in such an isolated market it is detrimental. If a company or entreprenuer wants to get involved, make something that we are lacking. As an example, there were two competitive cylinder heads, that proved to be a flop. We at TA were puzzled why people using our heads on a daily bassis found it necessary to be involoved with such projects? Why didn't one of them undertake something that was needed at the time, such as oil pans, performance water pumps and good thermostat housings??? Please remember that a Buick Timing cover is a complex, multi-dimensional component as opposed to a one dimensional Chevy stamping. The Walmart Parodox: force vendors to continually cut costs, to the point of sending the product's production overseas. Resulting in a crap product from i.e. China and a reduced quality US product, because the US company had to cut corners to keep it made in the USA. Then when Walmart wants to reduce beyond that, they edge your company out and go direct with the manufacturer. China is very desperate right now and expect them to steal even more manufaturing."
I choose and trust TA,Mike and all the sales people that I have dealt with I have bought many parts from them over the years as well as 2 TA covers.The person I bought my first cover from is very reputable, so I know for a fact that they are both TA sold units.My new Stage 2 motor is almost all TA pieces From pistons,rods,oil pan to intake and much more. I have a set of older TA Aluminum heads,roller rockers and valve covers too. I wouldn't think anyone at TA would ever do a deal like questioned above. There is too much to lose and a reputation that is stellar to lose if it happened. I spent $1000 dollars on 2 and if I need to again,wouldn't hesitate in an instant..Just my opinion.
The above statement is VERY false. Die cast Die Makers are the highest paid trade in Ford Motor Co., where I use to work where we use to die cast alternator and throttle body housings. Die casting is the more accurate and WAY more expensive way to cast parts. Sand casting is the cheap and easy way of casting parts. The only way die casting gets cheaper is when they cast enough parts to pay for the very expensive dies, which car companies do so its cost effective for them because of the quantity that they need. I no longer work there because Ford use to make 36 different alternators and asked Rawsonville Ford to quote how much it would cost to make all the dies and quantities of alternators they needed. Our plant did what they asked. Then they asked a plant in India to do the same. The overseas plant said no we'll make 2 different styles of alternators for you, that's all you need and their quote was for only 2 different alternators! Who's quote do you think was lower? Where do you think alternators are now made for Ford? I'll give you a hint, not here! You would think they would give the US plant a second chance to quote only 2 different styles, but they didn't want to do that because we would of beat the overseas quote and they have been wanting to close that plant ever since it was opened in the late 1950s!(they had a couple of lathes in the tool room older than the plant!)
The T/A cover may be more money, but it is a far superior product. There are certain things that one must never cheat on.
I didn't say that Derek, I simply cut and pasted Dave from TA's post so that everyone could read it more easily.
I know you didn't Larry, just wanted to point out that part was incorrect. I read it on the other thread and was thinking how wrong it was but wasn't going to bring it up until you copied and pasted it.
OK so the TA cover weighs in at 7lb 2oz, a NOS cover is only 3oz less so that probably won't prove anything. Anyway, .... in the photos of the cover I have in stock there is an area that looks to be a flat spot or two (irregularities) in the casting, which may be a good place for the logo. I'm not in any way going to suggest to Mike how to present his product, .... just a suggestion to the earlier posts about a location that might me easily visible even when installed on an engine. Larry
So I was swapping out my rad yesterday and while I had everything out I took a closer look at my timing cover and water pump. Once I wiped it down a bit I realized it's actually a lighter grey/aluminum color than I originally thought so it may in fact be a TA cover. I was wondering if anyone could tell me if their TA cover has a cast line on the top by the water boss like what's in my pic. Also has anyone seen the type of logo and numbers on the water pump in my pic before? I'm trying to figure out who the manufacture is of my water pump.
Just got a response back from Sherri at TA Performance regarding their timing covers.. hopefully this clears things up! "Andrew, Our 455 timing covers have NOTHING to do with the Proform covers. Ours parts are casted here in Arizona, machined and assembled by us in house. The proform cover is a knock off of our cover, and its made in China, and we have no idea where it is machined nor by who. The Proform casting is a cheaper quality aluminum casting that doesn't look anything like ours. Their machining tolerances are not to spec like ours ( ask anyone who has had a distributor get stuck in the Proform). Regards, Sherri TA Performance Products 16167 N 81 St Scottsdale, AZ 85260 480-922-6807"
Derek, I wanted to put our logo on it, but could not find a clean flat area to fit it. Maybe I should have put my name on the inside. I stopped doing that as well on parts, but now I wish I had at least continued casting my last name on everything. The TA part number is engraved when we machine them, not stamped. You can tell the proform cover from the TA by viewing two features. One, the TA cover does not have the small round spots in the water pump area like the proform. Those are vents in the core box, TA's do not have those vent markings. Two, for many years now the TA cover has a much wider separation between the suction (lower radiator hose area) and the impeller area. Our gasket also has the divider to seal these two areas from one another. I hope this helped. I need to go back through these post, only scanned a few on this page.
