Running a Little Bit Hot Tonight!

Larry, I stand corrected--it was listed as a replacement for the three row but it is actually a two row.
Patrick

 

Good, didn't want to think that huge radiator was the problem. Too many folks want to blame country of origin over facts.

I'm going to have to deal with the car but it is the same carb as the old motor and it ran pretty rich on a mildly cammed 455 with B4B. Tail pipes are black, bumper has some black on it. Idle mixture is adjusted so that it idles best. No idea what the AFR is but I need to get a handle on this. I guess I could swap the water pump off the old motor too. It was starting to seep a bit out the weep hole so it would be a temporary solution. New water pump looked like the old one impeller wise. I made sure it turned freely and didn't scrub the housing.

Never had this much issue with overheating before.

 

Ahh I see that makes sense. Gotta love new tech

 

I wouldn't be so quick to "acquit" anything just yet. When a certain "country of origin" has repeatedly caused so many of us in the auto repair industry major grief, we tend to draw obvious conclusions. Chinese junk is Chinese junk. I'm not saying that the radiator you've purchased is junk, but your symptoms certainly point in that direction.

The old copper/brass radiators were much more efficient than their aftermarket replacements out there right now. Matter of fact, we in the repair industry were warned of this years ago when cheaper and less efficient radiators started to hit the market.

You have a rebuilt engine. They generate more heat than a worn-out one. Switching to your old radiator may not be a valid test if your cooling system was "on the edge" before.

All aluminum radiators, like the copper/brass ones, aren't created equal either. Inferior materials, workmanship, design or whatever. That's why a lot of us avoid Chinese stuff, when there are other options available, because it significantly reduces one variable.

If the thermostat doesn't fix it, timing is good, water pump impeller clearance isn't excessive, mixture isn't too lean, head gaskets are intact (did you use ones that need retorqueing?), and you are sure that your flex fan can pull enough air through at idle, then what else is left? I have seen marginal cooling systems at idle that allow the engine and radiator to become so heat-soaked that even a highway cruise can't bring the temperature down. I have never been a fan (pun intended) of flex fans.

There are so many of these "overheat" threads here and not many people post the "fix". When you get it resolved, please follow up. It may help someone else.

 

I'm definitely one to let folks know what the solution was, even if it is my stupid, boneheaded actions that caused it. I like to document with pictures and data when possible.

I changed the thermostat to 160. Didn't make a bit of difference, climbed from first mark (120-ish) clear to 7/8 (220) while idling in my garage with the door open. Infrared gun shows intake side of thermostat housing at same as gauge, bolt on housing a few degrees cooler. Radiator hoses and water pump are lower at 180-190 range.

It is moving air because it is blowing painfully hot air onto me trying to check things. Also, the front spoiler is mounted directly under the radiator and no baffle so when driving, all spoiler air should flow up through radiator.

So, if it heats up driving when cold, as in from my driveway to the first turn at .7 miles, without any warm up time and also heats up at idle, it is definitely capacity, correct? Something is not up to par.

Heads were retorqued after first test drive. Only the outside ones budged at all. Used the blue Felpro ones.

The flex fan is huge. It is as big as a clutch fan without the clutch, much bigger than the fan on my 350 car that isn't a clutch. I do have a clutch fan but not sure it will benefit any.

I'm wondering if the water pump is crap? I hate to buy a T/A one if I don't need it but if it fixes the problem, well worth it.

Fan, shroud and radiator


Clear pic, 150 is one notch below 1/2


Half appears to be 165-ish


3/4 is 200 and 7/8 without a pic is 220. Top mark is too hot and probably 230+.

 

Swapping radiators only takes a half hour or so; I bought a replacement parts store radiator for my Skylark, which has always run on the warm side, and the new radiator wouldn't keep the temp under 230. I put the old scaly one back in, and we were back down to 200 again. I'm still running that old one after a flush, as a matter of fact. New radiators CAN be bad.

Additionally, I always drill a 1/8" hole in the thermostat because my Skylark ALWAYS air locks when I refill the cooling system. It's the worst car I have for that, but I've just made it a habit on any OLD car thermostat. I tried it once on my old '98 Escort and the car wouldn't ever warm up.

 

When you changed the thermostat, I'm assuming you removed rad cap, drained radiator, removed upper hose and stat housing. You installed another stat, spring side of stat into the intake, installed upper hose and filled radiator. Started and ran engine, rad cap off, coolant burps out of radiator, stat opens, level drops, and you top coolant off and put cap back on radiator.

Unless the water pump impeller is an excessive distance away from the timing cover cavity, the impeller is loose or it is the wrong one (fins backwards for some reason), I really doubt you have a water pump issue. If a TA water pump fixes the problem, then it would be a crutch IMO because you should have more cooling capacity than you'll ever need.

The fan does not fit as far into the shroud as a stock fan set-up. Is that the problem? Who knows. They are, however, notoriously hard on water pump bearings.

Do you notice the thermostat "bump" on your aftermarket gauge? That's when the temp rises after a cold start, the stat opens, and the temp drops back down until it stabilizes at thermostatic temperature. Did I read correctly that you can drive only 3/4 of a mile from a cold start and the temp is too high and doesn't come back down?

 

Yes, to be sure and obvious, the t-stat is spring side in manifold. I changed the thermostat, filled radiator, burped the upper hose a few times, let is suck in more. Drained a gallon, replaced all but about a cup, which I poured into the overflow tank. I'm working alone now so it is easier for me this way. I didn't see any pause in the rapid climb of the temp gauge. First pic before was at 4:28PM, next pic is at 4:31PM and last pic was at 4:35PM. About 10-12 minutes total run time.

The new 180 thermostat has a 1/16" hole drilled and positioned at top. The 30 year old 160 did not. I didn't test drive it because it acted pretty much the same way as with the 180F t-stat so no need. The angle may be deceptive. Where should a fan be in a shroud? It is far enough in it doesn't rub the upper hose and far enough in I don't ding my fingers when I fool with the distributor.

Yes, it will heat up to well above 1/2 on the factory guage, about 180-190 before I had the numbered gauge, on the 35MPH 3/4 mile leisurely drive from my house to the first stop light. At which point I turn right and usually accelerate briskly up a small hill and then coast down the other side in overdrive at about 1100-1200 RPM. It has climbed to 3/4 on the gauge and will drop down to half at the bottom of the hill. Even cooler when I first take off again at the next light. That to me seems like I'm not getting good water circulation. Make sense? I have held it in 3rd when I can't get to at least 40 before it will shift and it seems to run cooler.

The old motor had an early B4B. This motor has a powder coated Performer. I wouldn't think either the powder coating or the different manifold would make much difference but you never know. The old motor is iron headed small valve with a steel intake gasket. The new motor has Edebrock heads and the composite gasket with an old steel intake gasket cut up as a valley pan. Any change the gaskets are blocking something? I remember my head gaskets not being identical and didn't see any difference in the way they laid down on the block and heads. One hole was different between them. The hole in the top one just slightly upper right isn't in the lower head gasket.

It'll take me more than 30 minutes. It takes that long to drain it and remove the shroud/cover bolts for me. I need to clean the old one up to make sure it isn't too scaled up inside. Anything easy to clean it up with on the inside?

The cooling system is buttoned up tight. It doesn't boil over and only after it has percolated for a few minutes does it periodically burp into the overflow tank. When it has cooled down, the level is back to the "cold" level again.

 

Step away from the radiator.

Your centrifugal advance is probably coming on too quickly, which somewhat covers up the fact that the vacuum advance has been disabled.

"I" would put stiffer spring(s) into the distributor centrifugal mechanism, to delay the "all in" speed to about 2800--3000 rpm, but add in 10--15 degrees of vacuum advance.

I also have to question the fuel curve of the engine at part-throttle. I suspect it's overly lean. You say it's overly rich.

What pulley ratio do you have, comparing the crank pulley to the water pump pulley? You have V-belts, right--not a serpentine system?

 

Did it go unnoticed that this is the lyric from Van Halen's Panama circa 1984?

 

Bingo! My attempt at humor. Glad it was finally noticed.

But 14 degrees at idle should NOT be too much and it hit 220F just idling yesterday with the 160. I've not run a vac advance on the old motor since I put the curve kit and Unilite in it right after I got it in 1980.

At idle though it runs well. When cold it has to be manually held higher because it hasn't quite warmed up and no choke but once it does, it idles fine all the way down to 550RPM the mixture screws aren't all the way in or out. I am going into the carb eventually since it still has the mid RPM bog.

Pulleys are all stock ratios with standard v-belts that are snugged up and don't squeal when you rev it. Both pulleys are as big as possible and hard to slip a power steering belt between them. Same water pump pulley as the old motor and crank pulley looks identical, just freshly painted.

It could be lean or curve but I'd have thought the old distributor and the old carb would be close when they worked on the old motor. The old 268 Comp Cam shouldn't be that much different from the TA212 cam and I'd have thought the bigger heads would lean out my rich condition AND be cooler than the iron heads.

Is there anything that could be wrong with the heads, block or intake to cause such issues? Just exploring all options.

 

In the front passage, I can see through it so I don't think it is that. I did have to file and grind on the thermostat housing to get the factory housing to bolt on. They didn't machine enough off to get the mounting surface flat.

 

OK, let me think about silly stuff that may have no bearing on this. What would happen if I had too much antifreeze and not enough water? I added 2gal of antifreeze and topped off with water.

When I swap radiators, I'm tempted to fill it with water.

I will test it this evening to see what the freeze point is. It sits in a heated garage all winter so no danger in freezing and we barely hit -20F on the coldest of days over the last few years.

 

A couple things come to mind after reading this..

1. Possible coolant flow restriction.. so to insure that is not the problem, remove the thermostat, run radiator down about 2" in the passenger side tank, so you actually see the water coming thru the tubes. Should be a solid, if not aggressive flow, at 1500 rpm.

While you have it setup like this, test drive/observe the operation of the cooling system, to add that data to your knowledge base.

2. If the intake is new, there is a possibility of water flow restriction. I had a brand new performer that the Driver side passage was completely plugged with casting flash.. and it was way up in the passages toward the T Stat opening, you could not see it with casual inspection.

So, with your temp gun, while it is heating up while doing the above test, you need to monitor cylinder head temp, on both sides. Insure that they heat up evenly. This will check for a restriction in the intake or something going on with the water jacket in the head.

I have also seen the overuse of form a gasket type sealers, used at the cylinder head to intake joint, reduce the hole for coolant flow, by as much as half..

A word on Thermostats..

I never use them. stopped about 3 years ago, when I had a problem with one, and sat down and considered why I was even using one in the first place. While it's true that some systems need the water slowed down a bit, by the restriction that is provided by a fully open thermostat, many of them don't.

And if you need a restriction.. buy and install one...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...RJUgz2Nuelghud8rjgFha4TUDtdN9YtmWixoCNaLw_wcB

In a warm weather driven vehicle, a thermostat is just a time bomb waiting to go off. Keep in mind that once the T-stat opens, it stays open in the summer, and only provides a restriction. In nearly all cases, engine temp is determined by coolant flow and system efficiency.

Only when temps are below about 40*F, is a T-stat required to maintain engine temp.


Good luck, only thing worst than overheating is oil leaks...

JW

 

My experience is the opposite. My engines barely crack 120F when the thermostat fails open, let alone missing. IMO, it'd have to be a real marginal radiator/cooling system to get up to and stay at an operating temperature above 160F and ideally over 180F for the oil's sake.

 

He did reach down between his legs........................................and eased the seat back............

"Panama" was the frst thing that came to mind when I first read the title. Thought it would be a music thread!