Rebuilt 322 Smoking <HR style="COLOR: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->I have rebuilt my 1956 322" Nailhead and cannot get it to stop smoking oil when it idles. I installed .060 oil restrictors in the cylinder head which helped, and then installed valve stem seals on top of the valve keeper/retainer. This also helped, but it still will give a puff after idling at a stop light for a minute or so. I installed the newer version aluminum rockers when it was rebuilt. Other than taking it apart and having the intake guides machined for positive seals do I have any other options? The Motor other wise runs well, it has 18" of vaccum at idle and does not smoke on acceleraton or deacceleration. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated. Brian <!-- / message -->
I'm interested in an answer, too. My 1955 322 smokes out of the oil filler caps on the valve covers and through the draft tube on the valley pan. Doesn't use oil. And the oil stays clean between changes. Runs great. It's been smoking like this since we rebuilt the engine 34 years ago.
Bulldog,,, that is entirely normal for a car that doesnt have a pcv system.... what you do not want to see is the smoke in excess amounts or ''puffing'' like a freight train.... Fed,,,, i will say the same to you.... now, all nailheads are supposed to have the exhaust valve run ''wet'',,,, no seal at all on the valve stem , according to Buick ,,,, this will give a ''normal'' condition of a white puff of smoke out of the exhaust pipe on start up... after a lot of miles the guides will get worn and the engine will suck some amount of oil down the intake valve stem and can smoke some...in the later years, Buick used a little o ring seal that really did not do much, after some buyers of new cars complained about the puff of smoke when they started their cars up in the morning.... If you have smoke all the time,,, start looking for the source,,, sometimes with a manual/vacume booster fuel pump the diaphragm can start leaking and the oil travels up thru the vacume lines to the intake,,, and sometimes the vac modulator will bust and there is trans oil sucked thru the lines to the intake.....and,,,, of course , if you did not replace the valve guides when you rebuilt the engine, that is the most likely source......btw the valve seal goes underneath the valve spring retainer, on the valve stem itsself.....also, I have used the old fashioned umbrella type seals with good success, on nailheads... on both valves.....
Doc, thanks for your thoughts on this problem. There is no manual pump on the motor, it is electric. Pump rod removed and block off plate installed. The pcv valve is connected to the valley pan and is baffled. When the motor was done I disassembled the baffle, and installed new filtering media, then tig welded it back together. I have even removed it, to double check it was not the cause. Other than the distributor vacuum advance that is the only hose on the manifold. 5 Speed manual transmission. New guides were installed as well as new valves. Do you have a part number for the umbrella seals you used? The amount of room between the od of the valve guide and the inner spring is very limited. I do believe my problem is oil entering through the guide, I'm just not sure why it seems to be over oiling the top end. adding the oil restrictors, and then the oil seals really helped alot, it's just not good enough yet. Any other thoughts are very welcomed. Brian.
Brian, just where did you put oil restrictors?????the oil going thru the shafts, and rocker arms on a nailhead cools them.... the valve seals that I used were Ford seals... dunno the number.... just put them on the intake side... that is the side with suction on it... the exhausts have pressure... that is why it is ok to run them ''wet''.....
I put the oil restrictors in the cylinder head under the front rocker stand. The one thing I'd like to know is, if the new rocker shafts I installed with the Aluminum rockers have the same size oil holes as the old shafts that were on it. I had to send my old shafts in as cores, so I cannot compare.
:shock: How can rocker shafts be repairable or viable enough as a core??? Yes, There are some modifications that are commonly done to the shafts oil holes to IMPROVE oiling of the top end, but I am in awe at the need for restrictors. Do you really have that much oil at the top end? I presume this is a new or rebuilt oil pump as well? Any chance you installed the shafts upside down? Erik
''Back in the day" it was a common thing to install bronze bushings in the rockers to improve the durability...and lubrication...or just to salvage them....but I cant imagine any reason to restrict oil to the rockers,,, that is a chebby thing...
:laugh: :laugh: Hey, Bulldog,,,, do you suppose that engine is going to hold up ,,,after 34 years ??????:laugh: :laugh:
The oil pump was rebuilt, and the rocker shafts are installed with oil holes facing down. It does seem out of character for a nailhead to be so wet up top, according to alot of the information I have read on them. The other thing that is interesting is prior to the rebuild, the guides were totally wore out, the valves done, and even with all that wear the motor did not smoke at all. If I have to remove the heads and have them machined for positive oil seals on the intake valves I will. I was just hoping that there might be a way to avoid the tear down. Thanks for the help and input. Brian
Brian,,,no , pard, my nailheads get bunches of oil up to the top and all the ones that I have ever built.... I cannot run them without having a rocker arm cover over the valves... because the oil will coat the whole side of the engine after just a minute or so of running at idle.... and it gets really heavy if you rev the engine up.... like I said , that cools the rocker arms,cam, pushrods ect....:Brow: I have seen old mechanics use a valve cover that has the top cut out of it to be able to watch the valve action and keep the oil in the engine....:idea2: You can avoid a tear down by using compressed air to hold the valves up while you use a drill motor and acutting tool to cut the guides for valve seals... but it is a lot easier just to use umbrella seals or just use stock o ring seals on the intake side only....:laugh: but,,, I am thinking that you are getting oil from somewhere else....in fact , if the engine was pumping oil before you rebuilt it, there could be oil in the exhaust system that hasnt burned out yet....
Doc, no the old motor was not pumping oil surprisingly enough. Leaking from the rear main seal, yes. Side note, when I rebuilt it I was happy to put a new style rear main seal in it. It leaked like a stuck pig when it got warm. Tried a couple of times on my back swapping in other new seals....no luck. I pulled the motor back out, stripped it and installed a "Best Graphite" seal, it seems to work well. When I had it apart, I pulled the intake valves out and they already started to get oil carbon buildup on them on the backside of the valve. This really made me believe that it is guide related. I appreciate you posting your thoughts on this, maybe I'll be able to figure it out. Brian
Well, i just went out to see, and sure enough she fired right up!p I've had several mechanics tell me don't worry about, as long as it doesn't use oil. So, I quit worrying about it. When someone pulls up to a stoplight and says hey you know your car is smoking? I tell 'em its old enough to smoke! If, I was to start worrying again do you think I should look at the valve guides? I've replaced the fuel/vacuum pump. Maybe I'll try that again. Thanks, Doc
Yeah, Bulldog, I would look at the valve guides.... and yes, you too Fedman.... I think that both of those engines need new valve guides and seals on the intake valves... unless you guys have a broken ring or some such it just about has to be the valve guides.....
I would do a compression test just to confirm 100% there isn't an issue with the rings. Unfortunately, just because new guides and valves were installed doesn't mean the clearances were set correctly. Was each guide to stem clearance verified and documented after installation? After getting machine work done, I personally always like to check bearing clearances as well as cylinder dimensions, valve guide clearances and the stem diameter and numerous other dimensions. Humans make errors and considering the cost and time to do an engine, its worth the extra effort to 2nd inspect and document everything. If the shop is doing the assembly, ask to have all the dimensions documented on paper. That way if a problem does develop, having the data can really help narrow down the cause. I know thats water over the dam in your case but this is a good example of the importance. I'm far from an expert on the 322 but I would remove the restrictors you installed in the heads unless you find experts on the 322 that say otherwise. I'd want plenty of oil reaching the rockers. I always thought the reason for installing restrictors in the heads was to leave more oil in the sump for the crank and main bearings when roller rockers are used that require less oil than conventional rockers. Not to reduce oil on top from leaking past the valve stems. In other words, the amount of oil reaching the rockers is not the root cause of your problem. Good luck and keep us posted what you find.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this problem. I'm going to take a break from it for a week, clear my head and come back to it. The puff of smoke is ruining the fun driving experience for me, I'll post what I find when I get it beat. Brian <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> <!-- / message --><!-- controls -->
Feldman, thanks for letting me invade your thread. Doc, Thanks for all the insight. All the smoke from mine is from the crankcase blow by. If, i closed the blow by system and installed a pcv system, would all that smoke going into the carb, and intake, and valves, be bad?o No: And, would then, the smoke just come out the tail pipe? Or, should I try to cure the smoking by replacing the guides? This is a great forum, I should've got on here yeras ago. Thanks to all for your input. Bulldog
Good luck, It'll be a year or two before I can afford to get in to a lot of engine work on mine. I got laid off April 2009. I've been working the last 14 months at restaurant at half of what I was making before the layoff. I'll be interested in what you find that works. Bulldog
Maybe I'll go ahead and do a compression test. I've been suspecting the rings, along with guides. Bulldog
On the engines with the old road draft system,,,, there is always some amount of smoke/steam coming out of the road draft pipe or the breathers.... normal is a slow , lazy exit,,, what you dont want to see is vapor streaming out at a rapid rate or puffing out in puffs in time with a recriprocating piston.... And,,,, Yes , a pcv system is far more efficent at pulling vapor out of a engine....plus it puts a negative pressure inside the engine.... helping to eliminate oil leaks.... it is well worth it to make/install a pcv system on a older engine....and, I have seen some real smokers cured by routing a line to the carb air cleaner and running the gases thru the engine , burning them and out the tail pipe....
