Pro Systems Carbs - Shame on you.

Oy.

I honestly don't think I'm a dick. And I certainly don't give people a hard time. But when I spend really good money for something, I expect satisfaction.

Not being happy with the Demon Carb, and having no good results with the BG tech, I opted to get another Holley.

I looked really hard at a Quik Fuel 950, but I was left wondering just how much I'd have to tweak it to be right for my combination.

A friend of mine suggested I call his carb guy, Pro Systems. I really liked the concept that the carb would be built specifically for my combination. But the initial phone call should have raised suspicion. He swore I needed downleg boosters. My "garbage can" carb was modified with annular boosters, and I just read in Hot Rod where annular would be best for my situation. But Pro Systems swore I needed downleg.

He being the expert I agreed. Now, I MAY still benefit from the downleg, but I'm not sure now. The body is a Holley 950 HP with billet baseplate and custom calibration.

During our "interview" for the carb build, he never really dove in to how I used this car. I explained to him VERY CLEARLY that it is a 13 second STREET car with AC and all power options. He said the carb he'd send me would be perfect.

When I bolted it on the car I was surprised that the billet baseplate had provisions for vacuum prongs, but none were installed - they were plugged up. When I called Pro Systems he said in a know-it-all tone that I shouldn't be running vacuum advance. Huh??? On a heavy street car with a mid size cam? I think vqacuum advance is RIGHT. besides, I told him I needed vacuum ports to work my heater and headlights. He said he'd send the prongs to me and I could install them. I told him I'd rather send him the carb and let HIM install them, but he assured me it was no problem.

So I wanted to see this carb run, so I fired it up and realized the secondary squirter was dry. It was plugged somehow. My guess is it was never totally drilled out in the main body.

So I sent the carb back and he fixed the squirter and vacuum ports.

It ran pretty good when I got it back. The floats were a tad low, so setting them cured an off-idle hesitation. I figured it was OK.

Then I realized that when I stopped hard or turned left across traffic the RPMs dropped to 300 and it wanted to stall. He was stumped and told me to set the floats lower.

I also realized that when I shut the car off the whole garage reeked of fuel and the top of the intake would get saturated with gas. He claimed that because my fuel pump didn't let the pressure out of the line when I shut it off, the pressure was making the fuel weep out of the boosters. So I ran it and shut off the fuel pump a few seconds before turning off the engine. The pressure goes to zero, but the fuel stench is still there.

Also, lowering the float did nothing to cure the stalling problem when stopping or turning left, AND now the off-idle hesition is back.

So I called Pro Systems yesterday to see what to do next. He said fuel slosh when braking is normal with the hi-flow boosters, and the hi-flow needle and seats don't seal all the way and the pressure in the line pushes fuel past them and I should just shut off the fuel pump before shutting off the car.

I POLITELY told him I was dissatisfied and this is NOT what I wanted. The 3 other Holleys and the Demon didn't have these problems. Then the guy got belligerant and told me I had to do what he said and shut off the fuel pump before stopping the engine! And race carbs work this way! I again told him I didn't think a street car should want to stall should I stop short or turn in to a parking lot, and my garage reeks! Can I put normal needles and seats in the carb? NO! it changes the fuel curve! Just shut off the pump like you're supposed to!

Now, I MAY be a dick, but I still think I gave him EVERY opportunity to say, "Let's make this what you want." But instead he basically said I had to live with it and change my way of driving!

So, I'm NOT recommending Pro Systems Carbs! I'll put standard floats and needles and seats in this and see what happens.

I'm VERY disappointed that yet ANOTHER businessman thinks he knows it all and that the customer is wrong and should do things the Pro System way.

A horse, a horse. My kingdom for a horse!

 

....how bout just your back 50 for the trashcan holley back ??

Sorry you're having all these problems Cuz

 

What about going to a nice low-buck, dead reliable, 800cfm q-jet. Get it close, go to your nearest chasis dyno and fine tune it there.

On a motor like yours there just isn't that much difference to be had (besides the headaches) in performance.

And usually a Q-jet will make a little better mileage.

Just a thought, take it for what it's worth.

Brett

 

sorry to hear that Yardley, do you think you've had enough carb troubles this year?

 

4 words Yards

Rochester Quad Ra Jet :laugh:

 

I knew I was going to hear from the Q-jet crowd.

Seriously, I would have gone that way but:

I have about $1000 worth of free Gary Paine porting on this square-bore B4B intake, and there isn't enough gold in any mine that'll make me part from it!

I'm still flabberghasted at his attitude. He's telling me that race carbs act this way and that I'll have to live with it and shut my fuel pump off every time I turn off the car, all the while I'm telling him I'm not happy with his product and this is not what I wanted at all.

He had every opportunity to be a mensch and step up and offer to give me a carb just how I wanted it. After all I gave him $750!!!!!!!!!!!! for this one!

But no.

So the word goes out that Pro Systems Carbs are to be AVOIDED at all costs.

Seriously, if I had a dual pattern intake I would have put a John Osborne Q-jet on it.

I'm comfortable in the fact that I've lost money several times this past year kissing my clients's asses and making sure thay are happy. Even at my expense. And all those clients have given me more business, NOT told others to avoid me!

I gave him a good second chance when I sent the carb back to him, but he failed the test with flying colors.

 

Ouch
Harsh dude

Yards- my sympathy man! With all you've spent on carbs you could have gone FI by now

 

That's just cr@ppy service, on a cr@ppy product. Can you get your $750 back?

And that business about "your fuel pump didn't let the pressure out of the line"??? that's plain ridiculous, they're not supposed to - tells me the guy is an idiot.

One question, though: If that ported intake didn't cost you anything, why the attachment? Seems you could sell it, take the $$ and get a ported spreadbore intake and then a good Q-jet. (of course, I HATE Holleys...)

 

Yardley, I know exactly what you are going through,because I myself had a similiar experience with a carburetor years ago. The only thing different was I had bought a brand new Edelbrock/Carter carburetor and it didn't work very well. More money spent on it(jet and mixture needle set),still didn't work right. I had about $750 invested,and I ended up chucking it in favor of a stagger jetted Q-jet. Best thing I did,because it ran better,had more power,and was better on gas.

Yardley,go with the Q-jet.

 

WOW yardley....

A 950 carb on a 13 second car..... You don't think that maybe it's just too much carb for that motor? Ok what size jets front and back do you have and what size squirters. Also what size power valve in the front and does the rear one have a plug in it. Do you have a 50 cc accelerator pump on the rear. Let me know i may be able to help you out. Just thinking out loud i would say that a holley 850 DP set up right would give you the max performance that you are looking for. Hell the carb guy will tell you anything just to sell you a high $$$$$ carb.

Billy.

 

Gary Paine ported the pi$$ out of this intake. I'm convinced that it alone is the reason the Riv runs as good as it does. My guess is a good half second over a stock B4B.

I'll get this 950HP to work. It might take a while and a lot of effort, but I'll get it right.

I'll NEVER give up this intake.

Gary Paine RULES!!!!!

 

carb

Yards,
Sorry to hear about the carb problems. I have had real good results with holleys and prefer them over anything except webbers. Sounds like you have encountered an individual that took a good holley and screwed it up. as I read the story, my imagination kind of took over and I wondered what would happen with that engine if you had an old holley 1050 cfm 3barrell all tricked out [which you could easily do your self] same size as a regular holley, not big like a dominater, easy linkage hook up. Just a thought, and a suggestion.
I wish I was there to watch the fire works. When I read the guys response to the flood ing problem I wondered why the guy didnt suggest a pressure reg. or a fuel return line. A tiny return line would bleed the pressure off the carb and not cost much pressure at all. I get the feeling that the so called expert is really NOT. :Brow: :Brow:

 

Thanks Doc.

I've got a regulator. I reduced the pressure from 7 to 6.25 just to see if that helped the fuel slosh problem. I shouldn't need a return line because the other Holleys never needed one. I'll take the ultra "race" parts off and go with standard needle/seat and floats. I'm just not sure how that'll affect all the other tuning he's done - with regard to air bleeds and stuff.

I'm going to post a separate thread about dogleg or annular boosters.

 

Hey guy's I'm sure that I will get hammered for this but pro systems is one of the top race carb companies there is out there Patrick gets 7,000 for his top pro stock carbs and has won exclusive contracts for Big money with prostock teams. I have four of his carbs and everyone does what it was designed to do. Patrick will wortk with you till the end if you work with him. To be honest he knows more about carbs than any of us do. He is not a street carb guy but has built me two that work great. It sounds like you had a bad deal with him but if you would have worked with him he would have worked with you I'm sure. I'm sorry for your issues but to tell everyone that he is to be avoided at all cost is a over kill. I would run his stuff over anyones because as a customer you can call him 24/7 for help and he will give it I called him at 11:30 on a Sunday night when we had a motor on the dyno and we had a funny spot in the mid range rpms. Patrick told us how to fix it and even called me that Monday to see if it worked which it did.
Go easy on me now I'm sure I'm going to be hammered but I had to say something Pro-Systems has been there for me and many of my customers.

 

Hang in there YARDMAN & don't pull any more hair out of your head....that you can't afford.
Trial and error and you'll get it right. Hang in there BUD.

*P.S.(stay off that funny stuff while your tuning that carb)

:moonu: MOON' :moonu:

 

Yard,you're making me blush
I've had best luck with the annular discharge.I don't have any experience with the 950 you have,but it should work.
PS that was one of the best manifolds I had,we used it on the 69 GS400 when I was racing it ,definately picked up over the stock B4B.
gary

 

Did you try a quadrajet+adapter?

 

did you ever get the demon book? my demon is more of a race carb than what you've got. it don't stall or any of that crap. it's a 1025.

 

this is the problem Yardley

I cannot solve anything on your car,to start,I need to say something.

Sometimes a great guy who builds great stuff gets too big and has to hire other people to do the work he used to. I had a Barry Grant modified 750 a lonnng time ago and it was the best carb i had ever run..now this was before Barry was bigtime,i'm not even sure he was racing pro stock. Now folks are having problems with his carbs because he isnt building them anymore,its assembly line stuff that fits all...and ive personally seen demon carbs with billet baseplates be so warped you could eyeball it on the intake.

Pro Systems could possibly be caught in the same situation...for years Ive known that Patrick James built the Baddest race carbs on any car...he now races Pro stock in IHRA so somebodys got to be doing the work now. It's quite possible he wasnt even at the shop when your carb was built.

On another note,and I know its not an excuse,your street carburetor may not have been given the same priority as another customers carb. It might have been thrown together and sent out the door. It could also have been a mixup,kinda sounds like it to me. Theres no reason to have to do anything special with the pump on a 13 sec streeter,and I would have vac advance on mine too.

Yardley,I know it sounds like I am an apologist,but I'm not...I'm offereing an explanation for why you could have gotten the awful customer service you did. If it were me,i would get Mr. James on the phone and explain what happened,I dont know him personally,but he used to come in the HPC chat room in its heyday and he always seemed like a standup guy to me.

Lastly...i've had pretty good luck workin on my own carbs,so PM me and maybe I can give you some help....fish

 

Rob - got that Demon book and the Mighty Demon isn't even mentioned in it. Still won't idle below 1000 with all the screws backed off.

Fish - we'll talk. And I understand and agree with you. It WAS Mr. James I spoke with EVERY time. I told him I wasn't satisfied with this carb and it wasn't what I wanted, and he rammed it down my throat and didn't even TRY to offer to make it what I wanted.

Cody, no room under the hood for an adapter, and I'm not fuzzy with the change in shape the air/fuel must accomplish to get in to the manifold.

Bobb, I'm sure his stuff is fine for all out race applications. My buddy has a 10.0 sec Camaro and right out of the box he swears by his Pro Systems carb. That's the ONLY reason I bought one. We all rely on recommendations from peers. But I honestly believe he dropped the ball on this one. He didn't ask me how the car was driven, or how many trips to the track it makes. He just can't seem to be able to differentiate between a street carb and a WOT race carb.

I shouldn't use vacuum advance? I should drive it in traffic with the stalling?

It has 45 squirters! The most I EVER had to run were 35s.

And the blocked secondary squirters in the main body was a pisser. He obviously never checked them when the carb was built. When I build a computer I test every drive, component and application. It works when I deliver it. I gave him ample opportunity to service his product, and he failed.

I won't call him. His attitude was terrible. I kept repeating that I wasn't satisfied. That this isn't what I wanted. He blew off my idea to replace the leaky hi-flow needles and seats. If I have to I'll even replace his boosters. If you want to tell him to call me then I'll take his call. But only if he's willing to make this carb drivable on the street. He has until Monday when I rip it apart and replace the floats and needles and seats. He has my number. 750 bucks and he won't make it right? I GLADLY lose money on a client visit if I have to in order to keep the client happy. I get referrals.

I openly give people a fair chance. If they can't come through then I'll gladly tell others my experience. As it is right now, Pro Systems is on my AVOID list.

And Gary? They'll have to pry that intake out of my cold dead hands! If you remember, when we traded I called you the second I opened the box and saw the porting on this intake, just to make sure there was no mistake and that you knew the intake I traded you was a stock one. I counted my lucky stars that day.