Breny I am truly sorry if I inferred a small business owner as part of the "Evil Rich". I know that guys like you are the only great equalizer in the work place. Giants like K mart, Walmart and other of the like use their mass buying power to push men like you around. My father was a small business man and he produced quality work. He had a small, well trained, well paid, happy crew. He always had work (customers) and was well respected in the community. Unforunately he was squeezed out by the big conglomerates who made their profits off the backs of their employees. My father died nearly the same way he went into business, penniless. At his funeral I think every man that had worked for him showed up and told me what a great man he was. Enough about my Pa, guy's like you will always attract the premier workers and therefore produce a quality product. Too bad you are a small minority. Oh by the way, are you hiring?
Yes Lou, I am hiring, the commute is gonna be a bitch though:grin: I think that the notion that guys like me are rare is a misconception too. I know a ton of small guys like me, I support them every way I can and get the same back. It used to be the american way, as you well know. Unfortunately the legislation that helps them(wal mart) often helps me too. Often business is business and uncle sam doesn't care, they impose things on all of us. I have also yet to find any of these huge write-offs or major perks people always accuse business of getting. Sure I slip some Buick parts though now and then but jeez, I almost feel entitled to. Bigtorque, I agree man. My Dad lives in SoCal and that is just nuts. There is no border control, and now, against the will of the people legally living here, they want to legalize all the illegalso No:
who is feeding who be careful lest you bite the hand that feeds you ? hmmmmmm and the employee's would probably argue that by doing work for an employer ( which said employer makes a profit on ) that they are the ones feeding the employer. they wouldnt hire anyone if it wasnt profitable. bottom line is this, one has cash to barter with and needs someones time, the other has time and needs some cash. its a trade off, but time is far more valuable than cash, time is the one thing which is only allotted so much to each of us. when our time is up, all the cash in the world wont buy us more. one must be their own boss so they can cut out the middle man. i know i dont want to look back when i get old and say, d@#%, i sold all my time to my employer for a few bucks per hour and now i wont have the time to do the things in life that i wanted to do. i am my own boss as i get older, money loses its importance. with that said, OT pay must remain, screw the company. that is companies in general, not any person in this thread. henry
I agree Henry! "Extra" pay for "extra" time. Its that simple. If my "extra" time is not worth "extra" pay, then its NO DEAL! I guess the work doesn't need to be done 'right NOW'. Just an employers efforts to get 'something for nothing'. If some (extra) work needs to be done right away, then SOMEONE's (ie: management, boss, owner, ect,) getting paid for it (in the form of bonus's, promotions, increased profit margins, ect.), otherwise either their time management skills aren't working or they underbid the competition to get the work. And the poor guy bustin his rump to make up for that mismanagement or cutthroat bidding deserves extra compensation for his efforts! In my somewhat limited experiences, the business owner whose employee's are the best paid and the happiest is usually the most SUCCESSFUL business around! They will also be the highest skilled, hardest workers around! BECAUSE of that HIGH PAY and EXCELLENT BENEFITS, that employer will have all of the BEST and HIGHEST SKILLED workers POUNDING down his door to work for him. Then if he's smart, he'll pick the cream of the crop, treat them well, and sit back and count the money!:TU: I know its nowhere near this simple, but it SURE worked for my Grandfather, and many other successful people that I've met who have been in business for MANY years. These are just a few words and there is ALOT more to it than just a paragraph or two. I don't know, I think there will be some VERY SEVERE repercusions to our National economy over this if it passes. No one's even talking about the 'lost tax revenues' from all this overtime going away!:spank: Does anyone realize how much tax LOSS we're talking about here? Then what? Raise taxes, cut more programs? (Notice how it all comes down to time vs. money?)
Some things I can't understand: 1. Why don't we close our borders? 2. Why are illegals allowed to work and not pay taxes? 3. Why not a flat tax rate? 4. Why not tariffs on anything coming in from overseas? I can't see how we can possibly win by pulling the rest of the world up to our level. It's a losing proposition! Also, if our forefathers were around to see the taxes we pay and the regulations imposed on us, they would probably start another revolution.
absolutely agree jeff. if that money stays with the company, it will mean lost revenue which will mean an increase in taxes for the working man. ( i am expecting a refresher course in trickle down economics any moment now. ) we dont hardly tax the very rich, or the megacorps, so any loss in revenue will have to be made up by the wage earners. between that and nafta, this country will soon have only the very very rich, and the very very poor. but hey, haliburton and their kind need another billion, got to steal it from somebody. now i am getting off topic. arriana huffington lives in a $ 7M mansion, yet paid $ 700.00 in federal taxes. i wish i could pay just $ 700.00 in taxes. henry
bush made the argument that we should let more people in the country on the idea that, if an american wont accept these wages and do the job, then we should allow someone in who is willing to do the job. thats his view but, the other side of that agrument is that if we didnt let all these people in the country who will accept low wages, then employers would have to pay a wage that would make the job appealing to the people who are already here. supply and demand is what determines wages. no hate here either, just think we need to keep something for ourselves. greedy dang workers, they not only want jobs, now they want to be compensated for them as well ! ( sarcasm. ) henry
Bush wanting to "legalize all illegal aliens is just a total crock! We need to close our borders now! He is just trying to get the Hispanic vote with that idea.Also, we speak ENGLISH here, not spanish. If you want to live with another countries customs and languages, move there! Our country is turning into what we fought and won a revoultion to stop in the first place. I have no doubt it will get worse. All the sci-fi movies that show us as oppressed are becoming too real. Brian
What is most amazing to me is how few people have actually heard about this legislation. How can this be so secret?
"be careful lest you bite the hand that feeds you ? hmmmmmm and the employee's would probably argue that by doing work for an employer ( which said employer makes a profit on ) that they are the ones feeding the employer." The employee is doing work FOR PAY. It is a pretty big stetch to say that the employee feeds the employer. I have no disdain for the "workin man" I've been there, I was that guy for a while. It is a whole different ball game from the other side of the fence. It is also a conscious choice for a worker to accept employment, I have yet to hold anyones feet to the fire to get them to work for me. That argument also shows disrespect, it is much more than a trade off. I personally have a bunch of dough at RISK by trying to run a business. If the business fails, I'm screwed. It likely means I am tapped out, broke, not good. The workin man goes about finding another job, no major loss, minor disruption in most cases. I think that was a poor comparison and a bit naive. I do believe that cutting out the middle man and being your own boss is the ticket. I would never hold anybody back from that. It is the american dream. Having the "wage earners" make it up in taxes is a crock man. Take a look at the real numbers. That top 50% pay 96% of the taxes. In many cases, the workin man is in the lower 50% of wage earners. I want to know when this group is going to START paying taxes? Mentioning the very rich and the mega corps is missing the point. You are talking about a few hundred people in a country of what 30 million? The ones being punished for hard work and success are guys like me. I would say anybody making from $150k-2 millon a year. It may sound foriegn to many here, it would have seemed strange to me a decade ago but, there are a TON of people that work very hard in this range that give up half of their earnings each year to support the vast majority of this country. If you don't buy it in my post, see the department of labor stats, the freaking govt admits it. You wont see it on TV or in the papers though. It is a scam on the working man, making them think businesses are sticking it to them. I hope people wake up to the truth pretty soon. Quit worrying about getting WalMart or the Trumps of the world, those guys will always be untouchables, right or wrong. If we contunue like this though, you will drive out guys like me, the small business guys that provide the good jobs at good wages. The attitude at the top of this post is proof that there is a problem. Jobs used to be considered opportunities, now it seems that some feel entitled to a job. That is bass ackwards whether you like it or not. It will not work. You also can not simply pay a wage that is acceptable. We will never have everybody in the middle class. As much as Brians comments about the mexicans rings true, the leveling of the playing field BS should as well. That is socialism, if you want it, MOVE. There are plenty of countries that will pay you a bunch for a meanial task, give you free healthcare, a months vacation and mediocrity for your whole life. Just don't bring that crap to the land of the free.
brent, as someone stated earlier, if a business isnt making a profit on the work of its employees, its due to mismangement at the top or one of the other issues he mentioned. if they are making a profit, then the employee is feeding the employer. as for taxes, the working man is the one who pays the way in this country, business gets lots of improper write offs, i think i read something in this thread about a few buick parts slipping through ? almost feel entitled to what ? i wont say it. a wage earner doesnt get any such write offs. employment is a transaction, one trades wages, the other trades time. that is the trade off. if one has dough at risk, its because they themselves made a conscious choice, good or bad, they made it. the us population is close to 225 million. supply and demand sets the price of everything, wages, car parts, everything. folks, if your wages arent what they should be, then its partly because theres too many workers for the number of jobs. yet the govt keeps letting more people into the country. employers could pay a decent wage, but that would require a change in imported goods and a few other things. right now we have too many employers who want people to work for nothing wages. dont bring healthcare and vacations to the land of the free ? ok employers with the attitude that they are the hand that feeds you, now thats a crock. i could go on, but it seems we agree to disagree. points have been stated, opinions formed. lets move on. henry
At what income level does the "workin man" title come in? I feel that I am one of the workin men and I do pay my fair share of taxes..I am tring to support a family and yes it would be a major loss to my family if I lost my job. It is not as easy as you think to just move on unless you want to make $7 an hour. I do not expect something for nothing and employers should feel the same. Its a two way street, without workers business would not exist. There is corporate greed and I have close friends that have lost alot because of it. Anyone want to buy my WorldCom / MCI stock? I can't believe how pissed off this thread has gotten me... ou:
My point exactly. I bust my ASS for my boss, 55-60+ hrs a week including most Saturdays. Not paying me overtime for that time over 40 would not help his company too much, especially if I refused to work more than the 'regular 40'. But stop and think about how much less production there would be. Less work = less productivity, less productivity = less income! Now who's biting who? But it would for SURE buy more toys for him and an even BETTER lifestyle IF I knuckled under to the NO OVERTIME and continued to work 55-60 hrs a week for just my regular hourly wage! :af: :moonu: Same production level.... MUCH lower operating cost! The rich just keep getting richer.... the poor well, GET BACK TO WORK! :spank: Somebody PROVE to me that this 40 hr. work week or overtime pay has any responsibility for our countries problem today. Seems to me (also my parents AND grandparents) like it only has made the country STRONGER AS A WHOLE, since its inception in 1935 (?). Tough economic times huh? ( dripping with sarcasm) The biggest growth of Mankind ever.... has been the times SINCE THEN! How can anyone act like this "overtime issue" is a DEAD WEIGHT dragging us down? Man, don't believe the HYPE!! I talked to my Grandmother today about this and she flew into a tirade! And she's no longer a member of the workforce! It's ALL ABOUT (CORPORATE) GREED! :af: :rant: I'm right there beside you buddy!:beer If this goes through, it will be like kicking me in my junk, and bodyslamming my family!:ball:
The definition of "irony"? Henry's and Brent's cars are 5 feet from each other in my shop. Quite the different views but the same interests in cars.. Gotta love that! Take care guys. This business owner/ employee is beat.. another 15 hour day at the grindstone.. But hey Henry.. lookie what we have here for you! The first part that is "all done". :TU:
Employers need to treat their employees as customers as they support the business, just as much as the people who buy their products.
Its tough to balance First of all you need to remember that the owner of the business has everything on the line. Many small business owners start the business and put up everything they own on the line. If it fails the employee just goes and looks for another job while the employer deals with lawsuits and bankruptcy court. In this country anybody can start there own business if they want. If you do not like working for your current company and think you can do better than you should do it. What is stopping you? Are you ready to take that risk? Some do and some don't. If you don't and decide to WORK for someone remember they took that risk or maybe their parents. I see it all the time when a business fails when the children take over. The company I work for lends money to small businesses. You don't see what your employer pays for each employee that works for them. If you look at your paycheck they have to match the SS taxes that you pay, part or all of your health insurance, workmans comp, benifits so on. Where I work 25% of your salary is the cost of just the benefits. Alot of people complain about the amount of work being sent over seas and yes it is cheaper but they also do better work than the average American worker. I have a friend that works at a dealership. Honda makes about half of the Hondas here and the other half in Japan. I will give you I guess which cars have 10 times more warranty claims then the other when tracked by production plants. I am not trying to slam anybody here but I have a couple of employees that just don't pull there weight. I just have to deal with them now but when the time comes they will be the first to go. My girlfriend works as a manger for a bank call center and you don't believe the attitude of a lot of the younger people in the work force. They think they are owed something from the company. They can't even make it to work on TIME. I have a another friend that works trying to get transportation companies to haul wheat and grains. It sucks, but he gets paid a great salary and just got a new company pickup truck (Ford250 V10) and all he does is complain about it. He puts in 45 hours a week,takes 1 to 1 1/2 lunch breaks and thinks he should be getting a piece of the pie that the 2 owners have built up over the last 20 years. In MN the state workers complain and threaten to strike because they think they are not be treated fairly. Most of them have worked there for 20 years and the only way to get hired is to know somebody. If its that bad leave, there are 30 people that would love that plush state or county job. They are upset they might have to pay 25 bucks a month for health insurance. I do not own my own company but work for it. Would I like to get paid more? Sure but I have to earn it. The CEOs of my employer are getting rich and I am not but is it their fault? Hard work is what built this country to what it is today! It will take hard work to keep it great because the rest of the world wants a piece of the dream. Remeber where this country was 200 plus years ago. Well I hope I didn't piss to many people off but sometime the truth hurts. :Smarty:
There are many good and decent employers out there, some better than others and some not worth their weight in kitty litter (clumped kind). The labor laws were put in place in the early part of the century to protect the common worker who was basically being worked to death for mere pennies. My Grandma used to tell me stories of the sweatshops in N.J. Some of the stories seem unbeleivable to us now or we can say that would never happen again but wouldn't it? What checks are in force to prevent this. Labor laws and Unions. On the other hand the small business man needs just as much protection as the worker, make it a somewhat level playing field and the best boss will always win. Make it where the workers are reduced to street dogs fighting for scraps and thats what your product will look like. Maybe some common ground could be found. One of my biggest problems with this is what happens when you have forced overtime? I know alot of people work jobs where you might see 3-4 hours a week and it usually is whether you want it or not. What about the jobs where you are captured and have to stay for 2 weeks or more and the Co. requires you to work 12-15 hour days? I know the easy answer is quit and find another job but is that really the way it should be? With all the respect in the world to the S.B.O. who has invested everything, I have also invested everything in my job, at 47 years old my home my family my sanity are based on what has been standard for the last 50 years. I have had a broken ankle, 3 blown disc's, hands that alternate between numbness and tingling (all work related). I have invested my health in this line of work and your answer is just give up without a fight and go find another job, thats the easy answer but I think the general population will have a different one.
I don't have a problem with someone working their butt off to get to the top and making six figures plus doing it. What I do have a problem with is top exec's getting obscene bonuses and stock options while crying the blues about the company not making money and the workers can't have a bonus this year. My company is like that. I work for one of the "baby bell" telephone co's. We don't get our bonus but the CEO gets a 10 million dollar bonus plus his pay plus stock options. Of course the poor guy didn't get the 60 million he was supposed to because the Board voted it lower. We make money hand over fist but if it doesn't meet the wild expectations they predict, then we are "losing" money and everything must be cut. This is all public knowledge, there isn't any cover up going on. He and his top few are just plain greedy. What sense does it make to give that kind of money to someone for a mediocre job? And then lay off people because the company isn't meeting expectations. I was a small business owner myself so I know how tough it is. So tough we didn't make it! I guess that is the end of my rant, time to get to work! Brian
By the way, we have overtime to work quite often, sometimes forced, but we also get paid quite a bit of money for it. It goes with the job. I knew what was involved when I took the job and I accepted it. Brian
My last word on this subject is, that loyalty is a two way street. The days are gone when you worked for a company, and knew that if you did your job, the best you could, then you would be assured employment. Corporations in America made it clear that they did'nt owe you a living. Fair enough. If I were ever in a position to have people working for me, I hope that I could treat them with dignity and respect, and receive the same. I have worked for very large companies (airlines) , but I do feel for the small buisness owners that seem to hit one government road block after another. But, you have to admit when corporate raiders, and the folks in charge,(ceo's, v.p.'s) are filling their pockets, and at the same time, crying poor, something has to give. I dont know the answer. As long as people are willing to inflict hardship and despair, to increase their profit margin, it will never end. o No:
