Joe, Wanted to give you some tips on assembling the VB. Most valves will go in no problem. However, the detent valve is a real pain. :af: Although it comes apart as an assembly, it can't be put together at one time. Place the end of the VB towards a box or something that will catch anything that can fly out. Get 2 small screwdrivers and start by installing the spring and guide. Use the 2 screwdrivers to push the spring down by going in through one passage on top of the other. Then compress the spring enough, leaving one screwdriver to hold it, so that you can get the first valve in. Now do the same with the valve. Use landings on the valve to push it down compressing the spring enough so it is as far down as you can get it. Leave one screwdriver to hold it as you did the spring. You should now be able to just slide the 2nd valve in, then the aluminum retainer and the roll pin. Remove the screwdriver and the valve is assembled. Now, for why I said to have the end of the VB facing something. You may mess up the first time and the screwdriver may slip. The compressed spring will then shoot the valve accross the room (have been there ou: ) and you will then spend a good amount of time searching for the parts. :eek2: Much easier to have them stopped by a box or cloth. Any other questions, please ask. Mark
Mark.......you didn't answer that o No: I was thinking.....if I leave out them servo springs and wavy plates, I'll bet when I do that first 2-1 downshift form a rolling start I'll crack the tires loose! :Brow: :3gears:
Pan shape Hi, I have a 67 Th400 S/P and my pan is shaped like a regular TH400. I bought it used and it also has the larger filter. Did the 67's come with the regular pan or did someone change the VB in this one and used a regular pan? Thanks Tim
Joe, Sorry, am on a borrowed computer (am not home) and didn't get you an answer. Have never done the bead blasting. I prefer the sanding as you can examine the plates as you sand them. Bead blasting may put little dents in the surface and you want it as flat and smooth as possible so the new clutches seat in. Maybe someone else has some imput on bead blasting. Some guys like synthetic fluid. I just try to use a quality fluid like Castrol, Pennziol or Mobil. Have also had very good luck over the years with Wolfs Head ATF. I like to change fluid often as the additives are not the same as what was used before electronic trans' came out. Changing synthetic gets pricey. Just my take on this. Also, DO NOT use Ford fluid, use Dexron. Ford ATF (my opinion) does not lubricate as well as Dexron. It give firmer shifts, but may promote wear. Since I recommend tighter clearances, you want the best lubrication you can get. This is just how I prefer to do it and others may not agree. You should not notice any change in the downshifts or chirp tire when kicked down. One of the great designs of the TH400 is that NO clutches come on during kick down. They are only released. :TU: So, going from 3-2, only the direct clutch comes off. From 2-1, only the intemediate clutch comes off. Going from 3-1, both intermediate and direct are released. So, theoretically, it doesn't downshift. It just releases clutch packs. BTW, the same holds true for the TH350. The only time things come on is when going to L2 or L1. Then the front band comes on in L2 and the rear band in L1. Regarding 67 filters/pans. Late model 67 TH400's came with the flat filter and pan setup. The VB's had the threaded bolt hole too. So, it is very likely that the trans came that way. It could also have been changed, but either way it is better to have the later setup. Mark
Mark......I'm not sure what style clutch I should go with.......one guy at the parts outfit told me that he has some with asbestos in them that are better. He also said that the only ones they make for the direct clutch are not waffle ones. Also, another guy told me that once he used waffle clutches in a tranny and it would make a "squawk" sound when it shifted. He said I should use the stock smooth ones. What should I do? o No:
Tonight I spoke with another guy who told me the reason that clutch squawked was b/c he prolly didn't sand the steel plates first. I think I'll bead blast mine to make sure that doesn't happen to me. I guess experience is what really matters when it comes to this subject. :bglasses:
This is a pretty informative thread,you guys are doing a pretty good job. One piece of information you might be interested in you can find on the raybestos site about sanding or blasting the steel plates. Basically they are saying do not do it. They amke steel plates in I believe 3 different thicknesses so getting the correct clutch pack clearance is fairly easy to do by juggling palte thicknesses. Anyway, keep up the good work here guys. Jim Burek P.A.E. ENTERPRISES
I ordered the parts today and at the same time I got down to the bottom of the "squawk" issue. I like this place, they not only sell tranny parts, they rebuild trannies too. The mechanic I spoke to spent about 1/2 hour with me and gave me a few pointers. He said that waffle plates are nearly indestructable but you should never use them in the intermediate clutch.....just the forward and the direct clutch. He ordered "high energy" intermediate clutches for the intermediate b/c he said they are indestructable also and are smooth and won't make noise. He said the noise is caused by the fluid squeezing through the waffles in the clutch when it applies, but this only happens in the intermediate clutch. He also said that when you remove the wavy plates for firmer shifts, you should only remove them from the intermediate and direct clutch only. If you remove the wavy plate from the forward clutch, it will jerk the car when you put it into drive. There is no benefit from making this clutch apply quicker, b/c it is always applied as long as the tranny is in drive.......it remains applied while the tranny is shifting gears. He also told me that the intermediate clutch must have a lot of clearance......it won't properly release if it's too tight. When I asked him if .035 was too close he said it should be about twice that much, but as long as it is about 1/16" (.062") it's OK. The other clutches can be tighter, but not tighter than about .030". He told me to just replace the wavy plates with flat ones and not worry about the clearance because it's too easy to make it too tight. He said switching these 2 plates only makes the clearance about .020" more which won't hurt anything and is better than going too tight. He also said that you should NEVER bead blast steel clutches......sanding them is bad also. He told me that the grit likes to imbed itself in the metal and it will pre-maturely wear the new clutches. It only cost me $20 extra for new ones. I asked him about the little dots I saw on some of mine, he said they are hard spots and that is bad. There's no way to get rid of them. I thought about it and that's the same thing I used to see on brake rotors back in the day when it was still possible to machine them. That used to cause brake pulsations.......I can only imagine what problems it would make in a clutch. He also gave me a stronger oil pump pressure spring to increase the main line pressure. It's the yellow one on the left:
It is always better to go with new, but you still have to check the clearance in the clutch packs. You can't just "assume" it will be correct. I have sanded steels for years and never had a problem. However, I don't sand them dry. I sand them in the parts washer with wet/dry emery. Some tran's that I have done this way have been running over 20 years to date with no problems. But again, new is ALWAYS better. Have used waffles in intermediate too with never a problem. I doubt anyone can hear the fluid going through the waffles. Am not saying he is wrong, just that everyone has an opinion on things. I would just suggest you make sure you get flat intermediate plates and not the waved OEM style. You may wind up with the red Alto ones and you will be fine. As to clearance, I agree. Use .030-.040 in forward and direct and .070 in intermediate. I prefer .050, but that is just my opinion. That is why I recommend using Dexron fluid while others suggest Ford. The Dexron is slipperier and can accept the tighter clearance. And yes, you need one wave plate in forward. Be careful with the pump spring. You don't want too much pressure. I almost always use the stock blue spring with 2 spacers. There were warnings many years ago that excessive pressure will force the metal sealing rings into the drum surfaces and can cause wear. It can even cause some damage to the 4 ring lands in the center support. The pump will also be working harder to create all that pressure and can stress the tangs are that driven by the torque converter. Just some food for thought here.
I'll surely check the clutch clearances and post what they came to in the next day or so. Also, what you said about just using the stock pump spring and 2 spacers........I never would have thought more pressure from the stiffer spring could harm anything but eat up a little more HP to drive it. I have 2 horseshoe spacers......I think I'll be using them with the stock spring after all. ou:
here's a photo of what hot spots look like I hope they can be seen easily in the photo where I have the circle:
Here's the pressure plate from the direct clutch. Notice the 4 hard spots......I tried removing them on the lathe by shaving of a couple thousandths, but they go right through and won't come out. I should note this is made of some kind of oil impregnated material....it smoked like hell when I cut it. Thankfully I have a good one I can use from my parts tranny:
Joe, I see what you mean by those spots. Haven't had any problems with them, What I watch out for are the blue spots that happen when the clutches have been slipping badly. They usually can't be cleaned up or removed. In that case, I trash the plates or the pressure plates. My position has been that you really aren't going to get perfect parts, even if you buy new ones. In fact, the older ones are likely better quality than you would get today. In an auto trans, there is always plenty of fluid around to lubricate the clutches. If you consider how much slip is built into a stock trans, it is hard to beleive they don't burn up faster than they do. Add to this that there is almost always some clutch and bushing particle floating around in the oil and you could drive yourself crazy. Of course, cleanliness and good filtration is a must, but I don't see the sense in worrying about a few minor imperfections in some pieces. Do the best you can to use good parts and materials, but don't use junk. I would need to know more about the spring in the pump. There were two spring I have used successfully. The blue one and a brown one were OEM springs. Usually any orange or yellow ones were aftermarket and may work well as long as the pressure is not too high. I recall that an orange one was available from one supplier. What was the NAPA one you used? Luckily, the spring can be changed from inside the pan. So, if you find the pressure is too low, you can always put the yellow spring in. There is a plug on the side of the case that you can hook a pressure gauge to in order to see what it is. The gauge needs to be able to go up to about 300 psi as the pressure can go pretty high in reverse.
Mark......where is that little plastic strainer supposed to go? (center of photo)It came in the kit. Also, check out the fancy Raybestos clutches :Brow: And..........Should I run synthetic fluid?
Joe, The clutches look good, just make sure the intermediate one is flat and not waved. Turn it sideways and look. It appears to be a flat type and should work nicely. The screen you have there is a governor screen (filter). If you look in the 66 VB you should notice a metal screen in one of the governor tube passages. The plastic screen you have there does not go into the VB, but into the case flat end first. The governor tube then goes over the pointed end. I don't have my book handy, but it should go into the center most hole in the case. Look at the 66 VB to make sure (if the metal screen is still there). You can either put the metal screen (after cleaning) in the 73 VB or use the plastic one. Don't use both. Synthetic ATF should be fine if you don't mind spending the extra $$$. A trans is not like a motor as it doesn't really need to be broken in. I would just want to make sure all is ok before putting in synthetic. Sure hate to throw away expensive fluid if things don't work out the first time. Am not expecting problems, but stuff does happen. Now that you have the clutches, you can check the clutch pack clearances. Once that is set properly, you can begin putting the seals on the pistons and install them in the support and direct drum. The intermediate seals are a bit tricky to get in and some care in needed to make sure you don't cut them. Always lube them with ATF or petroleum jelly first. Sometimes you have to move the piston a bit sideways to get it in and carefully work the seal into the center support. Time and patience are necessary. After you get it in, rotate the piston from one end to the other and center it. Use only 3 springs. I like to put them in the 2nd hole of the 4 in each group. Many trans' I have taken apart have them that way. I just don't like them on the ends. Once together, I would recommend air checking it to make sure there are no leaks. You may hear some hissing from the bleed orifice plug and very minor amounts from the seals as they are not surrounded with fluid. Use an air blower with the rubber end and DO NOT go over 20-30 psi. Closer to 20 is best. Use the center hole in the support as this is the feed. Sometimes you need to put a finger over the bleed orifice to do this. If it raises smooth and positive, you are done. Leave the metal rings on the center support or put the new ones on it. Once you finish the direct drum, you will want to air check that too by putting it on the center support and applying pressure to the end holes in the support. One hole is the direct feed and the other reverse. You will likely have to put your finger over the hole you are not applying pressure to as there can be a flow of air bypassing the seals (mostly from the direct hole when checking reverse). You may have to use 30 psi here as there are more springs in the direct clutch. Don't apply too much pressure without the clutches installed in the drum or you may raise it too high and binding the piston can happen. There may be some minor air leakage again, but you want to make sure that the piston raises and seals. Some pet. jelly on the sealing rings will reduce air getting by them. Just make sure the piston holds pressure and either raises or engages the clutch pack (if they are installed). This will process will allow you to get the main part of the trans together leaving the forward clutch and pump for last. Mark
That littel filter is as stated the governor filter. Your 66 would have a metall one in the valve body governor tube passage. The one on the right with the the governor tubes facing you. You may not be able to use the plastic one in the 66 case, some of the earlier cases do not have a step to to hold the filter in and it will goo all the way in and ride against the governor. You will need to check that. You should be able to use the original metal filter that was in the early valve body, they are easy to pull out, just use samll bore cleaning brush, like an oil passage brush, or gun barrel brush. Jim Burek
Mark.......you ain't kidding those clutch piston seals are a *itch to get in! :rant: The only way to get them in is using the plastic sheet trick you told me about. I have a roll of shrink wrap that I cut some strips from. I tried getting them in without it and they just wouldn't go and I screwed up 2 of them. ou: Fortunately I had a seal kit that I had used only the selector shaft seal out of so I had some extras. I can't see an average person doing this job without compressed air and a press which I used to put the springs back in the forward and direct clutches......although it may be possible to farm that job out to a tranny shop or use a vise. I air checked them before I read your post, although I used more pressure than you recomended they work and didn't bind up or appear to leak. Perhaps I should have waited until the clutches and new plates were in. I'm using a wavy plate in the forward clutch only.....there was .080" clearance on the intermediate, .040" on the direct, and about .005" on the forward with the wavy plate....I hope that's not too tight. It's a new wavy plate, and it is more wavy than the used ones.......perhaps it will flatten out a little when it breaks in. Now my next question........should I soak the clutch plates in tranny fluid or paint them real well with petroleum jelly? uzzled:
Soak the clutches in ATF for about 15 minutes. Make sure they are covered completely. I think the .005 on the forward is too tight. Wouldn't want less than .020 there. Try one of the old wave plates to see if it gives more clearance. Give it a good check to see if it is really that tight. It takes some practice to get the pistons in with new seals. I normally use a .010 feeler gauge and carefully use it it a circular rotation between the seal and the drum. Then use it in the center of the piston seal. This pushes the seal back enough so it can slip down into the drum. Again, practice. The inner seals (goes on the drums) can sometimes make installing the piston hard as well. Once the seals are seated between the piston and drum you can use a twisting action to drop the piston all the way down. Have been doing it for 30+ years, so I have the action down pat by now. The correct tool would be great for someone doing it often. Mark
That's a hard one to check.......the hub sticks out and you can't get the feeler guage in there. Perhaps I'll place an .020 shim betwen the plates and see if I can rotate them with my fingers with the snap ring installed. That should tell me if they are loose enough. One more question......the new steel plates have an odd shape......do I stack them all lined up the same like the left side in the photo or should I stagger them as in the right? o No:
I goofed ou: I had a thick plate mixed in where a thin plate was supposed to go..........there's actually a little more than .020" on the forward and just over .030" on the direct. I found some plastic material that I am using for a feeler guage that is flexible enough to fit into that tight area. I'd think that's just about perfect. :bglasses:
