This should get something started. Has any one taken a nailhead and converted it to multi port FI ? howmuch horsepower? which wiring harness? Which brainbox? what was the end RESULT?????:Brow: Doc :laugh:
Actually it says they'll be using TBI, not multi-port. It does look pretty damn cool in any case. Do a search. There was a thread a little while abck discussing EFI on Nailheads.
There's a hot rodder in my area who built a VERY nice setup for the 425 Nailhead in his '37 Pontiac. Edelbrock B262 intake with welded on bungs for the injectors.... Control system is by Accell. It's been on there for at least 7 years. It runs as good as it looks!:TU:
Thanks Walt, I would like to get some pics from some where .I read about an article that was supposed to come out in some mag. but I managed to miss it . I converted an old jeep once. It ran pretty good. in fact I am still driving it. the idea of a fi nail head has always had an appeal to me. Doc
a new solution Hey Has anybody seen those new efi strombergs that mooneyes is selling. The guy that devloped them lives on long Island and also sells complete FI kits. It seems to me I remember seeing a few old stromberg manifolds for nailhead buicks on ebay pop up from time to time. Figure you get his kit but use your own nailhead stromberg manifold and your set. By the way the manifold needs zero modifications, the injectors are inside the carb bodies and they are a direct bolt on to any manifold that has a stromberg 97 or holley 94 flange. Anyway, here is a couple of links: Mooneyes: http://www.mooneyes.com/MISC/drive.html The Guy making the units: Info@classicgass.com Anyway, hope this helps the efi nail head guys...now if i could only find a 6 carb stromberg ram log manifold for the later 455's....
fi nail head Hey guys check out the latest car craft the have a system called the megasquirt system. its do it yourself computer system. You gey a circut board and all the nessary electronic part and you soilder it together. It can control any engine from singal cylinder stuff to a V-12 if you wanted. It dosn't control ignition so you can use your stock setup or step up to an MSD or something. So all that would be left was to fad up an intake. Oh and it uses all Gm sensors. The kit sells for $225 dollars. thanks Adam
Hey Read about that system and the idea seems sketchy to me. The point of fuel injection is precise metering of fuel based on the engine's necessity which would require control of the ignition timing. If anything at least a signal from the timing would seem mandatory so as to keep the computer from guessing where your timing is set. I am not familar with the performance of the product but this is one of those times when cheaper does not seem to be the better alternative. Plust the kit is actualy cheaper when you figure in the eight hours assembly time for just the computer (according to the article) pluse the fact that the kit is only the control module and you would have to purchase all the sensors seperatly (which is also the impression i got from the article). For an older engine such as a nailhead there are other viable options if one is willing to make smarter decision with their budget and spend in the right places as well as invest the eight hours in actual tuning rather than assembly of a complex circuit board. anyway that is just my .02 cents.
The Megasquirt is completely workable. But I recommend that you really know your stuff before trying it. Someone who is experienced with FI could make that system work fine, but it's not for the faint of heart in my opinion. -Bob Cunningham
I understand the megasquirt is completely workable, but without the ignition controls why would you want fuel injection. Carbs can make more horsepower than FI and they are cheaper to own. The reason people go to fuel injection is that it is a more reliable system that performs more consistently than a carb. The reason FI is more consistent and precise is that it brings all the variable elements into one system instead of having them act independent or each other. I don't mean to be so down on this product but it reminds me of a lot of other products that are sold as low budget versions of high buck speed equipment. The best example i can think of are those electric superchargers, where the thing can at most create 2 psi of boost but it sure a lot cheaper than a real supercharger. To me this doesn;t make sense...if you are serious about your car and geting a supercharger spend the money and buy the real deal, don't be shammed by cheap alternatives. I feel the same way about FI...If you feel you need it then spend the money, get a system that works and has a marked difference over the alternative. To me the megasquirt does not seem all that cheap when you have to supply all the other hardware to get it to work (manifold, sensors, etc) and really has very fewer options than what else is available. Compared to a carb the system is not cheap and doesn't seem like it would have a noticeable effect on the performance of your car. This might be a great system for people who have a need for it (i could see racers using this becasue their cars are purpose built machines and operate within a narrow rpm range) but since i have not seen the product in action i will leave it as not something i would not recommend Just out of curosity, bobc455, i noticed your sig states that you have a 455 with efi. What kind of efi are you using? how did you get it to work?
Not necessarily. My S-10 is EFI and it has a plain old distributor. No fancy spark control at all, and it gets good mileage, makes OK power, and cold starts like a champ. - Freed
What motor are you running in the s10. I bet even if the efi doesn't make alterations to your ignition it still takes a signal from it making it a constant in the system and adjusting the fuel curves around any varances in ignition. That is how i have seen most stock systems do it....I have been hanging around too much late model iron. There are some efi systems out there that don't control ignition at all but they are usually on older stock efi vehicles, and there is a reason those systems progressed into ones that do have ignition controls. Also an efi system can have a regular old distributor (not individual coil packs) and still have ignition control, usually in the form of an electronic advance on the distributor. Even some of those computer controlled carbs had "ignition control" by being able to advance or retard the distributor.
Geeto, The EFI does not need to control ignition to work well. I ran EFI from 1993 to 2001 without ignition control, no problems. Very reliable and efficient. The biggest benefit to having the ECM control ignition is cost savings for the manufacturers. They can build an ignition system with no moving parts, which also saves on warranty costs and makes diagnosis easier. There are some benefits to ignition control, but it will cost you a lot more than Megasquirt (or other non-ignition systems). You can do things like add knock sensors, etc., but in reality my timing table looks amazingly similar to a distributor curve (vacuum advance plus mechanical advance plus initial advance). -Bob Cunningham
EFI Nailhead On the subject of putting EFI on a nailhead. I own a 63 Wildcat and thought of converting to EFI using the same system that I used on my streetrod project. I used a Ford 5.0 mustang computer and harness on my Blown 331 c.i Chrysler Hemi. The system uses mass air flow to measure incoming air and the computer mapping adjusts timing and fuel curves. I used bigger injector sizes for more cubes and the blower as well as a MAF meter that is easily matched to the injector size. I also made an adapter to adapt the Ford distributer to the Hemi block. The Ford MAF style of injection is seqential, so all I had to do was change the injector firing order to match that of the chrysler. Basically switched the injector harness around. The computer does'nt know what V8 it's on. All the computer does is fire injectors in a sequence 1 through 8 based on what it reads from all engine sensors. The other thing interesting about sequential EFI is that you can use the dual plane intake manifold-stock on the nailhead. Other EFI's use batch fire or bank fire injectors which favors single plane manifolds. I'm thinking of boring and tapping holes for threaded steel injector bungs in my nailhead manifold and using the Ford 5.0 system on it since it worked so well for my blown Hemi. Just a thought.
Jeff, sooner or later some one is going to do this. I would be intrested to see just how much hp a set up like this would put out. I suspect that it would be a bear. I converted a 258 jeep once and it was a much improved eng in the power dept, but all I used was a stock FI from a jeep in a wrecking yd. from the way You write I see that You were more knowledgeable about FI than I was when I did mine. I kind of did a monkey see monkey do conversion. Doc
Jeff Using the ford 5.0 Mass Air system seems to be popular for you chrysler guys. I have been working one making one for my 455 but my biggest stumbling block right now is how to fit the ford distributor in the 455. I am curious as to what kind of adapter you made, and if you could get pictures of it. Once i get the dristibutor issue figured out everything else is a tuning issue from there on out. Please enlighten me. As far as the nailhead FI is concerned, Sure it is pricey but if you are running a nailhead in your car why wouldn't you want the look of six strombergs completely hiding modern FI like the mooneyes setup. Sure it may not measure up to direct injection performance wise but is sure beats six real strombergs (or holley 94s) and has way cool visual impact. Stromberg manifolds for the nailhead are out there, I have seen them.
Jeff, Have You ever tried to tune 6 two bbls? I remember them from the old days and they were a nightmare. I think I will build a supercat on my 65 lark GS. However a multiport FI would be VELLY INTELESTING. dOC
EFI Nailhead Hey guy's, thanks for the reply. Six strombergs looks killer on a nailhead, however, the cost of the mooneyes setup is extremely expensive. What I did on the blown Hemi was to put two 5.0L mustang throttle bodies on top of the blower and made custom plumbing attaching the mass air flow meter to the throttle bodies then hidding the MAF sensor and plumbing under a hilborn style injector scoop- the ones with an oval opening that normally sat on two four barrels. I also made an custom air filter that sits inside of the oval opening. I guess what I'm getting at is there is a tremendous amount of fabrication involved, but the cost of the trottle bodies and the rest of the Ford EFI was really cheap and available everywhere. By the way the throttle bodies are set up with progressive linkage and viewing them from the side fools alot of people into thinking they are carbs. I was thinking of using a similar setup on my nailhead only using the a gutted holly carb or carbs as throttle bodies. One problem with carbs is finding a way to attach a TPS or throttle position sensor to the throttle shaft. As for the distributer, I dont have any pictures to show,but basically I made an alluminum collar on my metal lathe that adapts the ford diameter distributer to a larger diameter chrysler hole in the block and machined the shaft to a sort of straight blade screwdriver end to fit into a slot on the oil pump shaft. For the 455, I'm not sure without looking, what could be done, but I'll bet the fella who calls himself ignition man might be able to help. By the way it makes no difference which way the distributer turns- the ford works in either direction.
