One other thing to add- From what I've been reading it seems that you can just bolt up the parts from one engine to another, upgrading injectors as necessary to handle the size of the motor, and it will run. The only problem is that your system won't run quite as well as one that was custom-tuned for your engine. Differences in volumetric efficiency, plenum volume in relation to displacement, cam profile, gas velocities, etc. will all make it so your car won't run quite as well as it would with a custom system. On the other hand, if you can live with a little less power and economy and would rather save the money, you can still have most of the advantages of EFI without doing much to the computer side of things. Think of it as the difference between a custom-tuned carb and one off the shelf. Just some food for thought. - Freed
Freedster, point taken, however the Ford computer can be tapped into for changes to all of the perameters you spoke of. I was into Fords a while ago, and many companies offer ways to tweak on the Ford computer. Ford Motorsports for instance, has a couple ways to do this. Another way to look at is that although the nailhead and 455 BBB as well as other engines have more cubes and numerous differences, the Ford aftermarket has been tweaking on the volumetric efficiency and plenum volumes using a variety of heads, cams, intakes, blower, turbos, nitrus, headers and stroker kits; all while using the stock computer with little or no mods to the computer. The MAF system reads the mass of air entering the engine whether there is bad or good v.e. Differing cams, heads, displacement, mainfold vacum positive or negative makes neglegable difference on a street/strip driven engine as long as the the MAF meter is large enough (c.f.m) and is properly calibrated to injector size for a given c.i. displacement and horsepower output. Finally, the price of EFI is coming down with companies such as Megasquirt that have affordable EFI. I did the conversion on may Hemi a couple of years ago when the Ford system was in many ways was the cheapest and adaptable. Also, for those of you who think I'm a "Ford" or "Mopar" guy, I'm not. I simply love all V8's except the small block chevy- I'm soooo sick of those sbc's, it makes me want to puke every time I see one. Can I get a Hoo Rah!?
Yeah, hoo rah on puking when i see a s/b chev. I think a nailhead with a properly set up FI would be super strong in performance and durability. Put a large throttle plate on it &match all the other components to each other and I think it would embarass a lot of chevy ,ford and mopar fans. Shine a light i hear a snake a walkin. Doc
fuel injection question Ok i will admit that i don't really know much about fuel injection but i know that i would like to get a setup for my 300 project that i will be going together in the next couple of years. Since i am a colledge student money is kinda cramped so usually if i want something cool that i don't have the money for i have to make it myself. So i need some info on this ford fuel injection set up. My first question is why do we need to use the ford distributer in the first place why wouldn't any hei set up work or possibly something like and MSD crank trigger. a lot of my friends are into the 5 liter mustangs and have upgraded a lot of the parts i need so i probaly could get the stock stuff that i need real cheap. I have a question since i am new to this and have questions is there a good book out there that i can get to get more info on this. Also i want to say thanks for you guys taking the time to explain this to me and other things in the past. I think that people don't say that enough. thanks Adam
Adam, Let me talk to You out of my heart........ I had a 64 lark that I built to the optional spec. 4bbl,dual exaust, 11;1 comp. 300 in. eng. I had NO real gear in the diff, NO posi. I did have air bags in the rear springs, and bigger tires. I did go in and take all the sound deadner out of the floor boards and trunk. this lightened the car 100 lb. Buick only claimed 250 hp for this setup. It was a G stock Automatic car at the drag strip. It was a class winner . I won more,never broke,and had less expense,and more fun than I ever did, dragracing. If i had put a low gear and posi. the car would really have come on strong. think about it young man it is worth considering. Your friend, Doc
Adam You would need the ford distributor becasue the computer also has ignition controls and is an intergral part of the system. There are books written about the ford hall effects distributor. I am only two chapters into "Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control: 1988-1993", so i am not really sure of all the jobs it does in the system but it is obviously a key member, so suffice to say that if you want to run the ford system you need the distributor. The advantage to the ford system is that it is a mass air system, meaning that a sensor takes a measurement of incoming air into the engine (usually through temprature variances) and adjusts the fuel and timing accordingly. This is preferable to a throttle position system which uses a preset formula and a predetermined orifice size to guess at the amount of air flowing into the engine based on the position the throttle blades are open. Sadly for a custom application all that you will end up using of the stock components are the distributor, wiring harness, and a few sensors. The fuel rail, upper and lower plenum, and throttle body will all need to match your engines needs. fortunately you engine, 300 ci, is close to the stock size of a ford 302 stock fuel system components may work. All your fuel components must be bought as a matched set. AS far as fabrication goes here is basically what you will need to fab: a way of mounting the ford distributor in the engine (a machine shop may be able to do this for you), a lower plenum, and an upper plenum with a throttle body mount. For the lower plenum you would want to start with a manifold to fit the engine you are using, preferably aluminum and aftermarket but you could use a stock 4 barrel manifold. the advantage for aftermarket is that you need to know the flow rate of the manifold. You will need to add fuel injection bungs to the rails of the intake so as to accommodate the ford injectors. For the upper plenum you will need to fashion a box based on the need of the engine. there is a formula for this based upon engine size and manifold flow rate, i have it in my notes and if you are serious about this pm me and i'll find it for you. Literally this plenum will be a box that at the bottom has a flange for your intake manifold and at the side has a flange for the ford throttle body. The box must be air tight (welded, at all sides) except where the tb mounts and where it mounts to the intake. After you get all this built and installed in the engine you will need to calibrate the ford computer for the injectors you are using, as well as fine tune the computer for the system. A recommended tool is called the TwEECer which is a program that allows you to custom tune the ford computer. As you can see the system will not be cheap nor easy for someone with a limited budgets and limited skills. If seems like a daunting task but it is not impossible as there are many who use this system on a variety of engines. Make sure your needs dictate this kind of setup, if they don't you may want to investigate other options. If you are on a budget, i would suggest sticking to a carb, preferably a quadrajet or a holley, as parts are readily available and the potential for speed is there. Personally i am planning on using this system on a 455 i have. I want fuel injection and mass air systems tend to work better with the rather large cam i plan on using. The car will be a street strip car with an emphasis on reliability and consistency. I plan to roadrace the car as well as drag race and FI is more ideal because it is a pressurized system and i won't have to worry as much about fuel starvation under hard cornering, acceleration, and braking. Also i plan on getting around 150K miles out of the bottom end without a rebuild on an engine making in the 400 hp range. These goals would have been pretty lofty before fuel injection but are possible (though still difficult) with modern FI systems.
thanks Well first Doc thanks for the info you setup sounds like what i am going to build what did you do exactly was it simply a 4 barrel aluminum headed 300. Did you put an after market cam in it or not. Like i said i am in car so this csr will really on severe duty driving me back an forth to school in the summer, cruising around with buddies and the accasional trip to the local drag strip. So I pan on building a setup like GNRlark on this board. Right now i have the poston headers and an aluminum intake. What did you car run Doc. I not really into going to the drag strip every week end maybe 3 or 4 times a summer. So my goal is to build something that sounds good and is fun to drive. Let me know about your engine thanks again Doc. And to Geeto 67 thanks for the info that does sound a little to complicated for me right now My dad helps but he is a carb man so were are knew to this. It sounds like i will stick to the holley i have know good luck with your project and thanks again. I will post some pictures when mine is back on the rode again hopefully this may thanks Adam
Hey Adam If you are really into fuel injection you could look at holley's projection. It is basically a throttle body carb (like most gm trucks and cars had from the mid 80's through the mid 90's), which means that the injectors are mounted in inside the throttle body. It takes a regular air cleaner and will look like a carb with the air cleaner on. they usually fit a holley flange, but you will have to look at the kit to adapt it to your manifold. Because the fuel flows like a carb it has only a marginal advantage over a carb in that you will have a better idle quality, a slight increase in mileage, and better cold starts. These sound like things you want on your car as you will be using it for everyday use. The carb has the potential to make more power at wide open throttle, but only there and the idle and drivability may suffer as a result. It is a lot cheaper than most other fuel injections, i have seen projection kits going on ebay for as little as $600 (used) and $800 (new). Theoretically you could just scavange an old throttle body off a gm pickup and just use their computer but i don't know if there are compatibility uses, you would have to research it more. You will probably have to put in a return line for the fuel and modify the tank for it (i am not sure as i am not totally familar with this system, but that is what you have to do with most FI systems). In the end, figure that if you are bargain savy you may be able to get away with a fuel injection system that is simple, does what you need, and cost you around $900 to $1000 total. This si about as cheap as i can see fuel injection getting for a buick. In the end the carb will still be cheaper. Anyway if you really want FI, investigate your options and research, they may be cheaper ways out there (like pirating a tb system off an old gm truck and using an aftermarket computer) but you have to look around, talk to people, go to shows, and put in the effort. Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy. Here is the link to fuel injection on holley's site: http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSFI/FMSFI.html good luck.
EFI Buicks Geeto67, how's your prodject comming? Did you find a machine shop that will help you adapt the Ford distributer to the 455? You spoke of plenum's with differing sizes. The reason Ford went with long runners and a box style upper manifold was to promote good low end torque for the small cubes of the 5.0 . Alot of guys with big block ford (460c.i)converted there engines using the 5.0 system with a single plane aftermarket manifold and a ninety degree elbow with a flange that on one end matched the carb flange on the manifold and the other matching the throttle body usuallly about 80mm or better. I believe they used a piece of mandrel bent 3 inch exhaust tubing. This will give a rather short intake runner but that's what the big block needs. It does'nt need the long runners to promote low end torque. A good example of long versus short intake runners is the Ford taurus SHO. It had both. The computer would use long runners for low end torque then switch to short runners as the engine reved through about 3500 rpm. Just a thought.
Hey Jeff Yeah I have ben considering the elbow flange as means of attaching the throttle body. I have been in touch with the guy who put that system on a 69 charger and he told me based on his trial and error that the difference between the elbow and the plenum was like night and day. They sell elbows now that will bolt to a holley carb flange, so i don't have to fab one at all. But since between two friends I have access to a tig welder, a bridgeport, and scrap aluminum i would like to have something that has some show quality to it. As for the distributor part I am without machine shop, but then again i haven't been looking too hard. Job troubles, a basement flood, the bodywork on my GTO, and other maladays of life have kept me from putting in some serious wrench time on the car. I'm confident that once i get to ripping into both distributors and have the block readily available to test fit on, the answer will come. As for other progress, I'm figuring out on paper how I should do the engine rebuild. Since I am considering this fuel injection system the possibility of supercharging or turbocharging has begun to rear it head. I have always wanted a supercharged car, but there is the added expense to what is already turning into a costly project. I think what i am going to do is keep the compression at around 9:1. That way if I wanted to supercharge I could add about 6 to 8 psi of boost later on without having to change pistons. For the naturally aspirated 455 i had been planing on a 10:1 compression ratio. I figure that if i can get the engine all sorted out on paper and the FI mocked up before a i tear the 455 down then once it is time for the rebuild it will be more straight foward ( i.e. i order the parts, i install the parts without changing my mind), and the biggest obstical will be tuning. I appreciate you interest jeff and I will keep everybody posted when work actually begins, and now that i have the digi cam working (it was busted for a while) I'll be sure to take lots of pics.
EFI Buick Geeto67, it sounds as though you have really thought this build up through. I was thinking of something simillar for my nailhead, maybe a turbo or two with the Ford EFI. You mentioned the fella with the 69 Charger. Did he swap the plenum box in place of the 90 degree elbow? I'm assuming that this is the difference between night and day. Also, did'nt I see this 69 Charger in one of the car magazines? I subscribe to so many, I can't remember where but I did see one somewhere in the neighborhood of 496 c.i.
I am using a GM syclone/typhoon computer, homade harness, and modified a computer controlled 3.8 HEI to V8. You need a chip programer, a chip out of a 90-92 TPI 350, and you can modify a 90-92 TPI harness to work. And I got the knock sensor out of a early 90's ss 454 truck(they only have to be simular in displacment). I can give some more help if any one wants to go this route.
