Hello all, I just picked up a 401 nailhead out of a 65 GS that is in great shape. I want to go ahead and convert my car over to e85 because of future plans for the engine. I was wondering if any of you guys would happen to know where i might be able to get the parts needed for an e85 conversion for my stock carter afb(it needs a rebuild anyways)? Would you run the stock afb or go with an aftermarket carb? My boss has a few different edelbrocks sitting(700-850 range) around he said he would sell me for what he has in them, or pick a carb up elsewhere(how big)? I believe for the time-being(a few months) I will run the engine in mostly stock form... Doc's mod, minor headwork, idk what all yet... Any suggestions on how much I should cut the heads down for a bump in compression ratio for now(I am picking up another set of heads for future builds)? How would you all feel about maybe a 50 shot of nitrous every once in a while on stock pistons? The reason I want to go e85 is because when I do the first rebuild here in a few months I want to go with a fairly stout naturaly aspirated, high compression build with some nitrous(somewhere around 6k in the engine plus machine work, with no labor cost because I will be doing the build personally, well along with help and guidance from my boss and his son here at the shop). Further down the road I would like twin turbos with nitrous. Sorry for the novel :Comp: :boring: and all of the questions. I do greatly appreciate all of your help though :TU:. Sincere Thanks and Apologies, Matt
To run E85, your going to need to make sure the entire fuel system uses alcohol resistant components, not just the carburetor. E85carbs.com sells an Edelbrock conversion kit, I think it's about $300 and requires you to send them the carb. I don't think a kit exists for the stock AFB. If your plan later down the road is to build a pretty stout motor, you might be better off purchasing a new carb from them, rather than wasting $300 on converting an old Edelbrock. I'd be leery of running nitrous with stock pistons. They have a tendency to crack as it is, and nitrous would only add to the possibility of catastrophic failure. With aftermarket pistons, preferably forged, I'd have no concerns with only a 50 shot. At that point you could pretty safely go up to a 75 or even 100 shot. Just my thoughts, good luck! :TU:
Hey Matt, good questions for E85, as you don't see it discussed much for a carburetor engine. I am not sure on the AFB's so I will share what I know on the quadrajet. The components I use for each build will work with E85, the internal components. From what I read, if you find good quality parts supply for internal components, they may also work fine with E85. The components are only the tiny part of the process. The E85 burns at a different rate than regular fuel, and the carburetor has to be completely re-calibrated to match your engine and driving habits. A carb rebuilt to stock specs with good components will not run correctly. There are significant changes in the fuel circuits required. You have to get a good bit more fuel in to the engine to satisfy it's need. I am building a quadrajet now for a race car for E85 use. They can be done, but just requires a little more calculation than a stock type rebuild. Sounds like a fun build for you.
The biggest problem with E85 is it's hygroscopic properties. It absorbs water like crazy. Once it absorbs the water it becomes extremely corrosive. Do not use E85 unless you have a completely sealed fuel system and all rubber components (especially hoses) have been replaced with E85 approved pieces. As far as Carter parts, you might want to check with Gessler @ http://quadrajetparts.com. If this is not going to be a daily driver I would definitely install a fuel shutoff valve and run the carb dry after each use and keep a close eye on your crankcase oil. It will accumulate condensation. You can lessen this by removing the breather cap when the oil is hot to allow the steam to escape, but you'll still need to keep on top of your oil changes. Alky has it's quirks but it is well worth it on a performance engine if you know what your getting into. Good luck with your ride. Doug
The car is and will remain a daily driver, and I'm not too worried about gas mileage as I don't go much of anywhere, e85 being cheap is a plus even if it uses a little more fuel, and it's plentiful everywhere i've been. The only thing i'm worried aboutnis using the old style mechanical fuel pump. Does anyone make a high volume mechanical fuel pump(reference for down the road)? I didn't want to switch to electric yet, and switching to e85 lines isn't a problem, just didn't know about the carb. Would any of you guys reccomend switching to a quadrajet(I LOVE the sound of the secondaries on a quadrajet kicking in :grin?
You can raise the compression significantly if this will be a dedicated E85 vehicle, but there will be no using 93 octane again once done. E85 has an octane rating of about 105. This means it can have an optimal dynamic compression of roughly 10:1 whereas 93 octane will only support roughly 8:1 dynamic compression. A good duration camshaft with a late closing intake will use 12:1 static compression to make 10:1 dynamic compression in a dedicated E85 engine if you really want to go that route. How to get there will probably involve custom pistons and decking the heads. You will also need a third more fuel then 93 octane since the A/F ratio for E85 is roughly 9:1, and 93 is roughly 14:1. I am not aware of a mechanical Nailhead pump that could keep up with that. I think you will be using a new fuel system from tank to carb using an E85 compatible electric fuel pump. Cheryl
why not keep it on gas and run a meth injection setup. build a nice forged 9:1 motor and hit it with a big 125-200 shot of nitrous when you want to race it. It will be super reliable and Just incase you travel with it you wont have any problems finding gas.. gd luck with e85 around here in mass.
Thank you all for your help everyone. Which quadrajets can I use or are recommended to use? How much should I expect to pay for a quadrajet intake? 66larkgs, do you personally know much about water/meth injection? I am curious as to brands or kits you might recommend? Thoughts on running a small amount all the time for maybe an 11 or 12 to 1 compression ratio on the 93? Would both a water/meth injection plate and nitrous plate below the carb affect anything majorly(that's a lot of distance from the heat)? Also to everyone... do you have any links about HEI distributors on the nail or conversion kits?
RobbMC fuel pump is probably your best bet for a big mechanical pump. I have one, it's huge. I would be leery of doing any sort of permanent E85 conversion, I have heard all sorts of stuff about reducing methanol production. JMO, E85 is best for a street/race hybrid car with some sort of forced induction. Works awesome in that application. I am actually working on a roller cam 425 built for 87oct and a 413 LS2 87oct build. What is your ultimate goal with the motor? Give us a hp/$$$ number to work with.
Biggest thing is what is your realistic goals for your motor and what will you be doing with the car is most important. I have a robbmc pump and I don't use it because it doesn't have enough volume of fuel and I wasn't happy with the quality of the sending unit. I had to modify it to stop leaking and stop fuel starvation at hard accell. I run a areomotive a1000 fuel pump -10an feed and return lines, areomotive boost reference fuel regulator, and a CSU built 750cfm 4150 Holley with a spacer/adaptor plate and duplicated the airgap intake divided cutout with the doc mod on a Bridgeport. Ported the adaptor plate, intake and heads and pretty much just gasket matched and smooth transitions and deshrouding. I have looked into a few companys and I installed a snow meth setup on a conquest tsi and it is great. I haven't purchased one yet because it is on my list of things to buy when funds allow. not crazy money, about $500. I know a few guys mixing it with washer fluid and letting it fly and what a difference. Just steam cleaning you engine and adding octane at the same time.(Just taking up space in the combustion chamber with a cooling effect.) Have you ever made washer fliud rockets?? Here is some good reading http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems....r-Methanol-Injection-System/article_info.html Never ran it with nos but cannot see a issue and would exspect that you can have both systems activate at the same time with throttle micro switches. Turbocharged it with low boost and don't run a intercooler. easy peasy.. I run a ready to run MSD distributor and a msd 6btm boost reference box with a msd blaster 2 coil and msd wires. I locked out all mech and vacuum advance and it is locked at 35* right now. I love it but I am running a turbo and I have it setup to make tuning easier. less moving parts less variables when tuning. not sure where you are located but always welcome to come down and take a look at my setup.. looking to run it at the buick bash at New England drapway in April 13 and a test and tune the week before. My car is not a drag car at all and more of a g machine but I just want to see how it will due. Paul turbocharged Nailhead
The problem with Meth injection is that once accounted for in the tuning there are massive consequences if the flow is interrupted for any reason. Then there is no way to prevent the resulting damage without any lean protection mode or knock sensor in place. A clogged, pinched or broken line, a faulty injector or switch, or a problem with the pick-up could lead to a very nasty melt down. I like my octane in the tank always ready to go without dependance on another system that can fail. Cheryl
I Totally agree with you .. but you can say the same about a wet setup on Nitrous and having a fuel solenoid go bad. too bad we couldn't wire the ignition box to a reference from the a/f sensor and for spark cut?? .05 .1 is 16:1 plus.. reference it to some sort of relay or microswitch to ground the box.. would be fun to build something like that. i run a blow thru carb and run a FAST a/f monitoring system with live data stream and recording and i keep a eye for the red light on my a/f gauge saying ohh sh*t its to late!! Paul
We are installing this in the blown Mustang Cobra set-up, but they also offer this for distributor ignitions. We do not use meth, but 93 octane with octane booster for about 104 octane on the race tune. It is just one bad tank of gas away from certain destruction without a safeguard. The type of "chicken" you play without it gets old after a while. This is a Lean Protection Module ($299) that may be adaptable as it can be programed to take action. I think that is exactly what you are explaining. I just know once a more expensive combination is built, it makes sense to protect it! Cheryl
To be honest with you all I have no real expectations for my nailhead. I am just looking to throw as much at it for the funds I have available. I want to go with a full roller setup later this year with a set of Tom's piston's. I would also like to throw something around a 150 shot at it with the new pistons, any ideas for supporting mods needed? If I had to throw out numbers, I would say somewhere close to 350rwhp and as much torque as I can get through the st400 and a Strange Dana 60 off spray. I would have the spray for when I wanted to have some real fun, or someone who has a very quick car :Brow:. In the months leading up to then I would like something stockish with a little extra oomf, just to see what they were like, and to see how far I go. Before I build the engine I want to get all the supporting mods done. I need to put a camshaft in my car now so I need reccomendations, but I'm not sure exactly what I want for the time being... Other questions(these are all stock engine questions) 1. How much thicker are the composite head gaskets over the steel?(Iknow i've seen it many times on here but I my searching skills seem to be eluding me) 2. What is the maximum compression I can run on 93 to be able to drive in light throttle with no worries, and then spray water/meth past maybe half throttle? 3. Maximum 93 octane capabilities with no secondary systems? I thank you all so much for your time, Sincerely, Matt
the stock steel is close to .015. the black fel-pro head gaskets which are the only ones they make now are .033 after you torque them down.
You need to match the dynamic compression to the octane rating after picking the cam that makes power how and where you want it. Meth can make a 100+ octane equivalent depending on the amount. Below is an engine tempature, octane rating and dynamic compression chart that should help you decide: Cheryl
It is interesting that the above post did not register as new or move to the top when posted yesterday. So, here is a little shove to the top. Cheryl
