Doug Sorry to hear about the damaged block. Did the machine shop indicate why this may have happened? Block too thin or incorrect clearances? I have two 425 blocks and they both need sleeving as well. So if anyone has another nice 425 block and is happy to ship to CA for forwarding to New Zealand I may be interested as well (in line after Doug) thanks Ross
Not exactly sure why it broke; probably a combination of the boring to make room for the sleeve weakening the remaining cylinder wall and over aggressive install of the sleeve. The lower portion of the cylinder is already weak as it is not supported in any way. This was the reason I did not want to sleeve in then first place. I did discuss using a flanged sleeve to avoid relying on the ledge at the bottom of the cylinder and only agreed to the straight sleeve as the machine shop was experienced in sleeving blocks and I had communicated with other nailhead owners who had good experiences with straight sleeves. I did point out the weak point to both the machine shop owner and the person doing the work to ensure they understood my concerns and asked them to be careful at the exact point at which it broke. From the conversations I had with the owner it appears the more experienced person who was to do the work was not in the day they installed the sleeve and someone with less experience did the install. It looks like we lost about 3/16" of the lower portion of the cylinder. At this point we are going to attempt to save the block, by having a custom flanged sleeve made. This way we will not need to rely on a lower ledge to support the sleeve. I have spoken to the folks at LA Sleeve and they agreed that using a sleeve with sufficient thickness (0.080" after boring) will work even if the lower portion of the sleeve is not supported by existing cylinder wall. Best I can tell, only the piston skirt below the pin, moves past this point. I have spoken to the machine shop and they will be machining out the existing cylinder and we will be taking measurements for the new custom sleeve.
Thanks for checking in... No progress to report. I am still waiting on the sleeve. The engineer for the sleeve company is out, because his wife is in the hospital. Since it is a custom sleeve the engineer needs to create a "print" with the sleeve specifications before they can manufacture it. Once I have the print, I will be reviewing with the machine shop and then giving the OK to manufacture. From there I hear it is 5 weeks more before the sleeve will be ready. ou: I have also not ordered pistons yet, as I want to be sure this sleeve works before I drop that kind of money. For now, I have been cleaning and painting miscellaneous parts (brackets, valve covers, oil pan, etc) and started my Doc Dual Plane mod. I pulled the transmission outside last week and cleaned all of the grease off the outside of the case, as I might rebuild it while I wait for the block. The good news is my engine parts order from TA showed up today, so I got to play with some new parts. This is clearly going to be a slow build, which is OK as work and family are sucking up most of my time anyway. Doug
Bumping my thread back to the top with a quick update... Had the custom sleeve installed and we were able to save the block. Next steps will be to order pistons and fill the water jackets up to the freeze plugs. For those who have partially filled their blocks, what did you do with the block drains? They are below the bottom of the freeze plugs - do I just plug the holes and block them with the filler or should I make it so they are still usable? I am excited to finally be moving forward with this build Thanks Doug
you still plug them but there be no water there. my block fill is not sticking and going in the radiator i have to pull the engine and flush it out really good this winter.they have to do it right and its hard with a old block to make it stick. i would only do it if you really have to. i also am running a oil cooler because the water at the bottom of the block was there to help the oil cool, the water is no longer there.
Joe, Do you know what brand of block filler you are useing? Is it the same stuff that ahh65riv and Tom T. was useing a couple of years ago?
Good to hear you're making progress Doug. I believe it was Tom who mentioned using a length of round foam insulation inserted in the drain hole and going up inside the block. Do the epoxy pour, let it cure, then pour gas into the drain hole to dissolve the foam to leave a drain passage.
To clean the inside of the blocks cooling passages I use Muriatic acid. This is pool acid available at any hardware store. This cleans the insides like new so the Epxoy filler will adhere. Joe's experience with the cement is the reason I don't recommend it, but that's just my opinion. I make a little metal plate to cover the outlets for the timing case cover. Then I fill the block to within a 1/2" from the top the 1st. time. I do this so as the acid is doing it's job it's bubbling & I don't want it to bubble over the top of the deck & cause "Etching", unless the block needs to be decked anyway. The average deck height on a 401/425 is usually about 10.019" on the left & 10.020" on the right. I then rinse it out really good with water & inspect. You can let this acid sit overnight or just a few hours depending on how "Dirty" the insides are. If it needs to be done again I will fill to the top of the coolant holes as there is "much" less chance of the bubbling to spill over the deck. Once satisfied all is clean it needs to be dried really good. Setting out in the hot summer sun will usually do the drying that's nec. USE THIS ACID OUTSIDE & DON'T BREATH IN THE FUMES!!!!! On the drain holes use a piece of foam insulation. After the epoxy dries hit it with carb. cleaner or fuel & it will dissolve. And Joe, the muriactic acid etches concrete so that will help to remove any remaining particles of concrete left inside. Any other questions I'll be back in the am, goin' crusin' Tom T.
If I had to do this job Joe I would use a hammer & thin chisel. You need to break it up. Also, vibrating the block with an air hammer, easily mind you, should also help to break up the concrete. It will be a slow & ardious process. But, if vibration is causing it to come apart vibration will also break it up. Again, just my thoughts. Tom T.
Update and some questions.... Finally, found some time to fill the water jackets in the block up to the bottom of the freeze plugs. All came out well. The trick with the foam insulation worked perfectly. My pistons should arrive in a week or two from JE Pistons, then it is off to the machine shop for final machine work. I am making a list of items left for the machine shop and had a few questions: 1) When the big end of the rods get resized they will be removing some material from the mating surface of the cap and rod. That is going to reduce the size of the oil holes. Do these holes need to be re-drilled? If so, how big? 2) The machine shop indicated that they don't see any need to perform any work on the crank except polishing the journals. Before that is done and the crank is balanced, I want to go over the measurements with them by inserting the new standard size main bearings and comparing their inside diameter to the crank journal measurements so I know the clearances will be right. I looked up the recommended clearance and found them to be .000 to .0019. Is .000 really the correct low end - wouldn't that mean no clearance? What clearance should we be shooting for? 3) I am going to assume the machine shop does not have a torque plate to fit the block. I thought I read somewhere you can use bolts and large washers in place of the plate. Is this really necessary? If so, anybody heard of using bolts and washers? 4) Do the freeze plugs need to be in for final machine work? Finally, anyone know a source for new head bolts and are these similar to the factory version with threads on top to mount the alternator? Thanks Doug
1) I'd say a minor reduction in the oil passage will be insignificant. Rod's surface only gets touched up to make it flat. More material is removed from the cap, but I believe under 0.002". Some modern rod bearings did away with the oil feed hole altogether. 2) I like 0.015 to 0.002" clearance. 0.001" is getting snug if your crank is a bit out of round or bent. Over 0.002" will bleed off some idle oil pressure. Big clearances aren't necessary unless you do a lot of high load/ high speed driving like towing a heavy load or racing in the Daytona 500.... the extra oil flow aids cooling under those conditions. 3) Babeola posted pics of a bolt/spacer setup to load the block a long time ago.....2003-2006 perhaps? 4) Good question. Never seen that addressed before, probably not an issue. It's the exterior of the block anyway. Bolting on an engine mount would have more of an effect than a freeze plug? Last time I installed steel freeze plugs they were so tough to get in I was afraid I was going to break the block! Been using brass plugs ever since. Head bolts. I believe they are available, Russ Martin would know. If you have the late thick alum alt mount, it mounts against the head. it requires longer head bolts. Be careful you don't install those longer bolts in the other locations!
Thanks Walt I will search for the torque plate alternative thread and check with Russ on the head bolts. I will probably leave the freeze plugs out until machine work is done so I can easily clean out any shavings from the machine work. I already picked up brass plugs Doug
For anyone looking for the thread on using bolts and spacers instead of a torque plate, here it is: http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?69839-Torque-plate-Deck-plate-for-Nailhead
