Before I begin buying parts, I put together the plan for rebuilding my 401. This is the original engine for the '65 Riviera I am building. I would like to build the strongest engine I can without destroying the streetability of the car. This will not be a factory restoration and this car may see some minimal track time. I will be upgrading components where I can (forged pistons) to ensure wherever this build takes me, I won't need to redo anything I already did. My plan is to have all machining done by a local shop and perform all assembly myself. The following is my plan: 1)Engine Block you can look to my Block Inspection thread http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=240889. The block has been cleaned and pressure tested. Still waiting on sonic check. The block will be bored/honed, decked and deburred. In addition, I will be filling the water jackets, with epoxy up to the freeze plugs. 2)Crankshaft debur , polish and chamfer oil holes 3)Main Caps deburred. 4)Harmonic Balancer new from Damper Dudes 5)Pistons forged pistons by JE or Diamond (still trying to pick a vendor recommendations would be appreciated). I am shooting for a street friendly 9:1 compression. I will pick up pins from the same vendor and TA Performance seems to have moly rings in a variety of sizes 6)Rods stock rods, checked for straightness, deburred and resized (if necessary). Should rods be magnafluxed? 7)Bearings TA Performance appears to have a good selection of cam, rod and main bearings 8)Hardware upgrading to ARP rod bolts and main studs all other hardware will be original or stock replacement 9)Balance the crank, rods, pistons and pins will all be balanced 10)Freeze Plugs brass 11)Oil Galley Plugs tap for screw in plugs. I need to find the correct depth plugs that dont interfere with oil flow anyone know a source? 12)Oil Pump TA #1504A new oil pump 13)Camshaft to be determined. I have a lot of reading to do, as there appears to be lots of threads/opinions on cams. I dont mind an aggressive sounding cam, as long as it is street friendly (meaning power brakes will still work) and it can move a 4,500 lb car with 3:23 gears. All opinions are welcome. 14)Lifters to be determined with cam 15)Heads I am going to send the heads to Gessler Head Porting and go with the Level 3 option. Has anyone had this done to their heads I have some questions about which parts are used (i.e. springs)? 16) Head Gaskets going with the thicker composite head gasket, so if I want to raise compression later, I can swap in the thinner steel shim gaskets. 17)Rocker Arms still debating with myself on rebuilding the stock assemblies or stepping up to a set of rollers (boy, this is getting expensive) 18)Pushrods considering a set of adjustable pushrods any thoughts on vendor? 19)Timing Chain going to call Carmen Faso and pickup a double roller chain and new cam and crank gear 20)Intake Manifold original 4bbl manifold with Doc dual plan mod 21)Carb to be determined. I have the original Rochester 4GC and a brand new in the box 750 cfm speed demon that came with the car. Not sure I want to use either. 22)Fuel Pump stock replacement pump 23)Distributor I am going to use the brand new MSD Pro Billet distributor and MSD Blaster 2 coil that came with the car. I just need to find a replacement spring kit so I can set the advance. 24)Water Pump I am looking at the Flow Kooler pump is it really worth the money of the stock unit? 25)Exhaust I am still debating between the TA Performance shorty headers or running stock manifolds. I figured with all the money in the heads, I should let them breathe with the headers any thoughts? 26)Motor Mounts stock replacement from CARS Inc <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<o></o> Any opinions on the plan would be appreciated? Any other items should I consider? <o></o> Thanks Doug
5) I've heard very good things about JE, Diamond, and Ross. I think you'll get a great product with whoever you choose. 15) I'm not knocking Gessler, but after seeing flow numbers for his Level 3 ported heads, I wasn't super impressed. I believe he used to offer a Level 4 service too, but that's not listed on his website any more for the Nailhead. I'd look around at some other head guys before making your final decision. 17) If you can afford the roller rockers, do it. They are a vast improvement over the stockers. 21) I think the 750 Demon would be a great carb, especially since you already have it. 24) I've heard both good and bad things about the Flow Kooler water pump. I'm not sure what the price difference is, but if it's substantial I wouldn't bother. A stock pump should be more than adequate providing the rest of the cooling system is up to snuff. 25) The stock manifolds flow pretty good, but after doing everything else I think it would be a waste to NOT use headers.
there is a great Thread called 425 cam questions you will fine a lot of great Ideals on several different combinations, It help me to make the cam choice and a lot of other building dicision as go forword with my build.
> mag the rods ( should be resized with addition of arp bolt pkg i believe ) > i don't know if i'd fill the block at all , strong block as is and it may be detrimental to all your cooling concerns/mods . you are not going crazy with compression or boost etc also , automatic probably also . plus you are doing a sonic check . > edit - ok , well i read his other thread - and saw comments about the amount of block fill he's planning on doing not affecting cooling , interesting . so maybe ok , but the comment about the oil temp rising and affecting pressure worried me a little .
JE pistons are good.... forged are better than cast,,,, build to exact stock clearances, then break the engine in... port match the stock exhaust manifolds, and then put a good , big, exhaust system behind them.... Be advised , if you do use tube headers, be prepared for them to rattle, crack, leak,, be hard to install,, burn thru,, rust out, get bent, and have to be repaired... still want them...???? and on a street car, the difference between them and a good solid, prepped , factory exhaust manifold system will be minimal at the best... Fill the block with epoxy only if you have a super good heavy duty cooling system,,, talking rad, fan , shroud, water pump... here.... I am very reluctant to cut down on the amount of coolant in a system..... Balancing is good... Toms roller rockers are good,,, be very aware of the valve to piston clearances with the rollers.... JE will make the valve pockets any depth you want... Go with tri-clad bearings in the engine,,, because they can take heat and survive... New cam bearings... Assemble with moly grease, not the liquid crap that drips off with time... grease stays a long, long time.... use zddp in the oil.... always... keep the heat in the intake to flash the fuel into a vapor... Remember,,, ''ole Doc says,,, If it aint clean enough to eat out of , It aint clean enough to put together...'':laugh::rant: :laugh:
like Andy said you really need the 750 carb, roller rockers would be nice less wear on the valve guides then you would not need adjustable pushrods, still need after market pushrods. robmac makes a nice custom high performance fuel pump.dont think Carmen has any double chains left,really just over kill for the nailhead more weight too.he has the single chains and also the stock nylon ones too if your brave lol that am using they are lighter and better harmonics Carmen will help you to pick one. theres no cheap way to build a fast strong engine. its just everthing is so much money now a days. je has done to sets of pistons for me no problems, nice job. had a few sets of diamond pistons before for a mopar nice pistons, but when you talk with them seems like they dont care wont even call you back.
Most likely,,,, steel back , copper inner, tin /babbet next to the crank.... TRW is the name brand I like best... but I think perfect circle has some,,, and some others.... They will take more heat than the others and still live....
Sounds like a good plan! Pistons- First thing, check your deck clearance. Stock pistons are often 0.050" below the deck surface. Add a 0.045" head gasket, and your quench distance is near useless at 0.095". Get it near 0.045" and your combustion chamber becomes more efficient. Have the shop check the deck surface and do a CLEAN-UP cut.(Not a huge 0.050" cut that'll make your intake ports not line up with the manifold!) THEN have your pistons made to get them about 0.045" from the head with gasket installed. Next would be to determine resulting compression ratio and go from there. Stock 401's are about 9.8 from the factory with steel gaskets due to excessive deck clearance. There was a post about a company that made a mold of the combustion chamber, then made a piston dome to fit.....JE or Jahns maybe. Have them made with deeper valve reliefs as v-p clearance is an issue with high-overlap cams. Rods- ARP 455 rod bolt will fit. Resize rods afterwards. Main studs- I don't believe they are necessary? If you do use them, the main bearing bore may distort, and may require an align bore or hone to get them round. Oil Galley plugs- my shop used some Ford plugs that were thin enough. Oil pump- I didn't see any difference between my hp pump and the stock Melling pump I bought except for the shimmed pressure relief spring. Right Doc?:laugh: Bearings- 455 Rod bearings are the same. Durabond make nice cam bearings. Cam fit will need to be checked, and bearings sized for fit.... for any brand. Doc has a post on that too! Main bearings- No idea who makes these now. Last I checked, the name brands didn't have them.
it never hurts to magnaflux the rods...:Smarty: a friend of mine who ran a machine shop would routinely xray rods in performance engines that he was building... there was xray of a bbc rod that had a ball point pen inside it.... and he had a bunch more that had gas bubbles in them... but like I told him , my rods were from a Buick engine.... sure enough , my rods had no defects...:laugh: Be very carefull when you are spending money on ''performance'' oil pumps... you can get scammed....a lot of so called ''high pressure pumps'' just have a shim stuck in behind the relief spring... I take my pump apart and using a dremel grinder smooth up the insides and round corners, and de burr.... then correctly shim the spring with a hole in it big enough to pass more than enough oil to supply a performance engine.... custom distributers.... the stock nailhead dist. will do fine if it is in good mechanical shape.... recondition it as neccessary... a lot of good money is wasted here.... a billet alluminum custom, super whammy quadruple sparker with super ionized mag shooter wires will not work any better than a good stocker with a good brass terminaled rotor and cap.... and good wires.... just use your common sense....
All, Thanks for the advice Let me see if I can respond to some of the comments.... I will add roller rockers to my plan. I see there are Tom's rockers and TA rockers. After some quick reading it appears they are both good products, but the TA versions don't fit under the stock aluminum valve covers. Right now I only have the steel covers, but I would like the option of running a set of original finned covers, so I am leaning towards Tom's versions. Plus, I see I won't need th adjustable push rods, so I assume that will save some $$$ I will have the machine shop magnaflux the rods. I need to bring them in to have them remove the pins anyway I was thinking of using the FlowKooler water pump, as an upgrade since I will be doing a partial block fill. The FlowKooler pump is $135 and I can get a stock reman'd pump for $35. Doc, you mentioned having a good cooling system for the block fill so it sounds like the going with the FlowKooler pump is a good idea. Any other cooling system upgrades I should consider; the car does have A/C? I was planning on running the stock fan and shroud; is there any upgrade for the radiator? I was planning on re-coring the original. I need to do some more thinking on the headers vs manifolds. I have run headers before and have had good results (no leaks, rust out, etc). If the power benefit is not too great compared to a set of cleaned up manifolds than I would rather save that money for other upgrades Joe, thanks on the advice on the timing chain. I did not consider the additional weight and if it is considered overkill then I will stick with single chain. I was not planning on using a nylon gear, but upgrading to steel. I looked at the website for RobbMc, but did not see a nailhead fuel pump. Anyone have a link? Walt, I had already planned on decking the block to true it up. The machine shop checked it and said it won't need much. I am already planning on posting up for more advice when it comes to ordering the pistons. I have never ordered a custom piston and will need some advice when I get there. I know there are a number of measurements that I will need to get. I have downloaded the order form from both Diamond and JE and the amount of information they need made my head spin. Once I have a few other items figured out (cam) and have some of the machine work completed (decking so I can determine deck height) I can figure out the pistons. The machine shop already said they won't bore the block unless they have the pistons in their hands, so I am expecting a delay in the middle of the work while we wait for pistons. Per your advice, I will skip the main cap studs, as I have no plans to align bore and the machine shop agreed it was unnecessary for my block. Is there any upgrade for main cap bolts, as ARP does not carry bolts; should I stick with stock replacements? Best I can tell the TA oil pump I posted is actually a stock pump. I had previously compared it to the price of the Melling pump at Autozone and the Melling pump was actually more $$$. Sounds like a shimmed stock pump is all I need. What is it shimmed with? Sounds like I should give the speed demon carb a try. I believe it requires an adaptor to fit on my manifold, which I was not thrilled about. On the distributor, I was not going to buy the MSD dist, it acutally came with the car. The prior owners solution to a worn out motor was to bolt on the speed demon carb and drop in the MSD. It still wouldn't run well. Must have been the low compression and lack of oil pressure. When I dismantled the motor it looked like it never had an oil change. In fact, there was so much debris caught up between the oil pickup and the bottom of the oil pan it looked like someone left a hamburger in the pan. Thanks again for all the advice and keep the comments coming. I will update this post as progress happens (which I expect will happen slowly). Doug
4 core rad....in real good shape,,,, 7 blade fan,,,, good shroud,,,, small a/c water pump pulley.... 180 deg. robertshaw thermostat.... double belt s... separate trans oil cooler, outside the radiator....no cooler inside the radiator... have too much radiator for the engine and then get the temp up with thermostats...:Smarty: that way if you start getting anything more than the thermostat temp on the gage, you know that you have a problem with the system..... police cars have a heavy duty system that can be idled for hours on the hottest day of summer with the ac on and not boil over... that is the kind of cooling system that you need to build.....a emergency vehicle system....:Brow:
For the money, I'd give the stock pump a try. The AC pumps have 5 vanes, and the non AC have 3.....The 5 vane should push the water thru the system faster, which isn't always a good thing....the water needs to stay in the radiator long enough to give up it's heat. AC pulleys also spin the pump faster, so you can mix and match pumps and pulleys to change the speed of water pumping. Just make sure your timing cover isn't corroded in the impeller area. Tom T like a pump rebuidler in Oregon. 'Dutchman'-something. The block fill may make the bottom of the block a bit warmer which will be absorbed by the oil.... which could run a bit warmer, in theory anyway. :grin:
Doug, its not listed on there site but they will make one for you. think i was the first and the only one that they did. its work out nice about 6-6.25 lbs. its been going for about 4 years now. not trying to talk you in to it just an option.
Since I was planning on re-coring the original radiator, I can have it done as a 4 core. Most of the aluminum radiators I have seen have tanks on the sides, my Riviera radiator tanks are on the top and bottom. I did find this if I really want aluminum: http://www.coolcraft.com/Radiators/Buick/Riviera/1964.html If everyone feels aluminum is the best answer, I can do some more research or modify the mounting for a universal fit with side tanks. I was planning on the stock shroud, but I will find a 7 blade fan to fit (the original has 4 blades). I already have an A/C pulley and will add a seperate trans cooler. Thanks for the link for Flying Dutchman As for the fuel pump, I will probably start with the stock unit as the one on the motor now looks fairly new (not as grimy as the rest of the motor). Thanks again for all of the advice.
I've had good performance with the 7 blade fan. Had them 2 on cars with dealer-installed AC systems. On my blue car, I hit the junkyard and ended up with a clutch unit from a mid- -80's Regal, and a fan from a Caddy....believe it was an 18" diameter.
unless your wanting a stock look under the hood you could use the aluminum radiator and dual electric fans. 2 3.8 ford fans will cool a diesel truck.
Although this will not be a factory restoration by any means, I am partial to the stock look. I prefer my mods are only recognizable by those that know (other Buick owners). Next up, I need to make a cam decision. I will be reading many of the threads on this forum until my head spins. I started on the 425 Camshaft Questions thread and I am already dizzy. I will be paying close attention to similar builds (i.e. Erik "ahhh65riv") and may just follow in their footsteps. I also used the cam recommendation app on Comp Cams website and am awaiting their response. As I get closer, I will post up some options for review Thanks All
