Kinda sucks that I get left out of it since my engine wasn't originally in a full size (although available, I think), and its only got a 2bbl. Even though it did have very few options (havent found the build sheet but there are no signs of any radio, ever, besides the cheasy aftermarket one someone put in there, no power brakes, power steering, but all bench seats)
From "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"... ..., not sure I agree with it, but here it is - remember, it's free, and worth every penny. Muscle cars are high-performance automobiles made primarily in Detroit from 1964 to 1974. Car manufacturers placed large V8 engines in mid-sized cars, giving them quite startling performance and setting off intense competition between manufacturers to produce the most powerful and extreme machine. The 1973 OPEC oil embargo, stricter air pollution laws and insurance premiums killed most muscle car models, though they are actively collected and restored. Although auto makers such as Chrysler had occasionally experimented with placing a high performance V-8 in a lighter mid-size platform, and full-size cars such as the Ford Galaxie and Chevrolet Impala had high-performance models, Pontiac usually gets credit for starting the muscle car trend with its Pontiac GTO, based on the rather more pedestrian Pontiac Tempest. Spearheaded by Pontiac division president John De Lorean, the GTO proved far more popular than expected, and inspired a host of imitations and a general trend towards performance, both in the true 'muscle car' class of intermediate vehicles, and also the smaller pony cars like the Ford Mustang, Plymouth Barracuda and AMC AMX, and more luxurious and expensive vehicles such as the Buick Riviera. However, a large part of the appeal behind muscle cars was that they were mostly inexpensive models young drivers could afford. For instance, Chevrolet placed an extremely large 396 cubic inch (6.5 Liter) engine in its compact Nova. In today's terms this would be equivalent to attempting to make a Chevy Prizm with a Corvette motor (though the performance gains would be vastly different in such a project today as smaller, modern engines can use newer technology to produce vastly more power than their same-sized counterparts from the muscle car era). Mopar also had several low-cost models, such as the Dodge Super Bee and Plymouth Road Runner. Between 1964 and 1970, Detroit auto makers were in competition for the bragging rights to the most powerful motor. Power numbers generally hit their peak in 1970; the Chevelle SS 454 from that year is generally considered to have had the highest advertised output, producing 450 horsepower (336 kW) from a 454 cubic inch (7.4 Liter) engine. By 1971, muscle cars began to fall out of favor and disappear, with one of the last muscle car holdouts being Pontiac's Trans Am 1973 and 1974 SD455 model (while the SD455 was considered the last muscle car, the Trans Am nameplate continued until 2002). While fast (sometimes extremely fast) in a straight line, most had primitive brakes and suspension (compared with modern vehicles and also European sports cars of the time), and tires which were inadequate to handle the acceleration and speeds the engines made capable. These inadequacies have all been to some degree addressed by after-market suppliers, of course. Outside the US Australia developed its own muscle car tradition around the same period, though many were modified four-door sedans rather than two-door coupes. The most famous were the Holden Monaro, the Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III of 1971, the Valiant Charger, and the two highest performance Holden Toranas, the SLR 5000 and the XU-1. Holden Special Vehicles currently produces high-performance versions of various rear-drive Holden Commodore sedans and Monaro coupes, fitted with highly modified American V8 engines, and are perhaps one of the closest contemporary equivalents to the classic American muscle car fast, exciting, but relatively crude automobiles (though with far more attention to handling and brakes than the originals). In the UK, the muscle car itself never gained a significant market, but it certainly influenced British manufacturers, with models such as the Ford Capri and Vauxhall Firenza directly inspired by American designs. Later, both Ford and Vauxhall continued the tradition of producing high performance variants of its family cars, though often these had more subtle styling than the traditional muscle car, though with some notable exceptions. The more European influenced hot hatch has largely occupied this segment of the market since the early 1980s. In the US, General Motors recently discontinued its Camaro and Trans Am models, leaving the Ford Mustang the last surviving semi-muscle car built in the states, although Pontiac recently announced plans to begin selling Holden's Monaro as the new GTO. American muscle cars Road & Track identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965: 1964-1965 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans GTO 1965-1975 Buick Riviera Gran Sport 1965-1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport 1965-1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S 1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS 1965-1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442 Other later muscle cars include the following: 1970-1974 Buick GSX Chevrolet Chevelle SS 1966-1974 Dodge Charger 1969-1970 Dodge Daytona 1971 Dodge Super Bee Ford Fairlane (GT & Cobra) 1968-1974 Ford Torino (GT & Cobra) 1968-1971 Oldsmobile 442 Plymouth GTX 1968-1974 Plymouth Road Runner 1970 Plymouth Superbird 1966-1971 Pontiac GTO
I think you mean "identified the following as muscle cars starting in 1965" Kind of an odd list- it goes to 1970 for a Dodge Coronet (don't they mean the Super Bee??) but only goes to '69 for the GS. Kind of a contradictory and confusing list from R&T I don't take R&T's word for the time of day unless I'm wearing a wristwatch, personally
I don't doubt you saw it. But around here...not the rule according to Uncles, friends, friend's Dads, etc, who were there. One of my uncles cut a tree in half with a '68 Firebird 400. He obviously was racing. He tells me that the cars, for the time, had plenty of options o No: What can I say? I almost bought his replacement car, a '69 Firebird with a 350. Plenty of options, and I'm sure he raced that car, too. I have to disagree with the 'modern muscle car' concept, for reasons I've already listed. Too well mannered, too convenient and too subdued to be muscle cars. As far as I'm concerned, they are GT cars and that's it, since the muscle car era is gone, no matter what the car makers say in their ads. They can tout the "return of the muscle car" all they like, but the breed is dead, just like the era they were built in. Just because they say so, doesn't mean I beleive them. They're pro liars after all :grin: And that's something you can quote me on, too :TU: I also have to disagree that a muscle car includes things such as a Shelby 260, Cobra, or 427 Cobra. They are all demonstrably a sports car. Corvettes aren't muscle cars, either. Heck, the AMX was a two seater and it's popularly considered a musclecar, and I'm torn on that one, because it's mission was the same as a musle car, it had the same formula- just wasn't an intermediate. But strictly speaking, it's a sports car not a muscle car because of the seats. If that AMX is truely a muscle car, a Miata with a V8 conversion is a muscle car, too, which I think we can both agree isn't so. the AMX is an odd hybrid of the two that's hard to classify. Which brings me to cars like the Viper. Not a muscle car. It's got plenty of muscle, but it's a sports car. Just because I take an '89 Town Car, pop out the back seats, and stuff a 460 in it with a 4 speed, a 3.90:1 rear gear, and toss out all the extra weighty stuff, that doesn't mean it's a muscle car I agree about the pony cars- they are just a type of muscle car in the '60s and '70s
My Definition for Muscle Car: A car from the early 60's to late 70's era that has good power(heck, just about every american car had decent power), naturally aspirated, and has to have some kind of resemblence to the era in which it was made in. I would consider an old skylark 4 door with a BBB 455 a muscle car, the motor is the life of what "muscle car" means. Without the old motors, there would be no muscle cars. If you put in a turbo charged GN motor in a 1970 GS 350, it would no longer be considered a muscle car in my eyes. The motor is what pretty much makes the muscle car. :3gears:
Mike, I think you may have mis-read me. I meant that the "strippers", like your 72, usually did not get undercoating. I in no way implied that just because a car has undercoating, it cant be a muscle car. As far as non posi muscle cars goes, have you ever actually driven a 400+ hp 4 speed "classic muscle car" that was riding on it's original 6" wide bias-ply tires? When the rear end swings out, those crappy tires do nothing to aid in recovery. Having 3 tires pointed in the right dirrection, and only one "breaking loose" was a safety feature! :laugh: We could all split hairs all day long on the "correct definition" of a muscle car, sports car, "GT car", etc, etc... At the end of the day, a muscle car is one that is built for srtaight line performance FIRST, and handling, comfort, etc., SECONDLY. I wont argue the 64-74 thing, because that is most certainly the "golden age", but I personally feel that definition is just a little too narrow, and leaves out some great contenders from the 50's and 80's.... Just my opinion. A sports car is one built for handling, and/or spirited driving FIRST, followed by straight line performance SECOND, and everything else [especially comfort] a distant THIRD. I dont feel that it has to be a 2 seater to be a sports car,,, Ferrari, Lamborghini, even the corvette have been built in a 4 seat model. A pony car is one built for "Driver appeal" FIRST, followed by whatever options the buyer wanted SECOND. However, selecting the right options, like a big block and a 4 speed, could quickly transform a mild pony into a wild muscle car... Just my opinion.
Just one more opinion. The term was coined in the 60s so I'd call it 60 through mid 70s. Musclecar means power without finess, how to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. All boils down to power to weight ratio, but I'm not sure just where I'd set that bar. Dave Berry
What?? My 1972 GTO 455HO, m22, 3.55 posi didn't make the list? My definition of a "Muscle car" is 64-72 American made intermediate V8 four barrel (or more ) four speed or auto. Options were discretionary and shouldn't disqualify any car, even though even though I prefer my Muscle cars as bare bones as possible.
While were on the subject, just what exactly does "sport" mean when your talking about a sport utility, or a sports car??????????? When I think sports, I think baseball, running, gymnastics, etc. The only sport my cars ever competed in was a straight line contest... Does that mean my muscle cars are "A.S.V.'s" [acelleration sports vehicles]? Even the most popular motor sport on the planet, NASCAR, has more in common with muscle cars than any ferrari or corvette o No:
