kk i wana hear your guys defination of an offical muscle car. Mine is 1960ish to 1974 V8, 4 barrel or bigger, dual exhaust, 4spd (auto or man)
You definition is inline with what most enthusiasts would say. But I think a Musclecar can be built outside of those years too. I figure if its a new car like a Vette or WRX, that it should be called a supercar or something. But Musclecar seems applicable to anything raw. Like no fuel injection, computer, handling etc. Just my $0.2
I think the term 'muscle car' also applies to the look and stance of the car, bulging fenders/quarters, wide tires, etc....... [EDIT] Sound, love the sound of a V8 especially through headers and a set of flowmaster 40's [end EDIT], as well as things like horse power (obviously) and for me personally 'cubic inches'......... [EDIT2] I also like all the old '60's/'70's odd/trick stuff, like the vacuum operated flapper door on the cowl induction Chevelles, snorkeled air cleaners, ram air in the headlight setup for the '67 (I think it was '67) 442 W30, Aluminum front clips on like the Catalina's, etc...... just my 2 cents, Harry
Forgot 1 thing, In my 'old school' type of thinking, I also prefer normally aspirated engines, not fuel injection, no NOS, (NOS was considered cheating when I was dragging) etc......... Harry
A factory built, intermediate or compact, with an engine originally used originally only in larger, heavier luxury cars. Since the GTO is known as the grandfather of the musclecar era, I tend to think of it's competition as 'muscle cars'. To me, the last ones died out about 1973, when the last high compression engines were mandated away by Big Brother and his Insurance Company minions (SD Trans Ams....I'm biased :TU: ). After that, 'those' cars are 'performance' cars, in my opinion. I reserve the term 'muscle car' for those that were built during Detroit's 'muscle car war' heyday. I guess I consider the true muscle cars to have been built during a certain era, now long gone. (Oh, and Harry...I still consider NOS 'cheating'.... :Brow: )
4 speed auto? Lotsa muscle cars with a 3 speed TH350 :TU: I hate it when GNs, '80s Monte SS cars, 80 and up Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, etc get called 'muscle cars'. They are performance cars, no doubt, but much more like a Grand Touring car (GT) Muscle cars were usually fairly well equipped, a stripped down stocker was rare, but you could get it that way, back in the '60s and '70s- no options other than engine, tranny, rear end. no 8 way power seats, radio (let alone a stereo!), etc By the time the '80s rolled around, the climate of the times wasn't the muscle car era anymore I know a lot of folks will disagree, but the muscle car era was roughly 1962 (GTO was the first recognised muscle car, not the same thing as the first) to about 1974. the reason I choose those dates is simple- the car makers were in the hp wars. Fast cars were cool AND sold well AND weren't "Politically Incorrect". Then the insurance companies killed it. Over, the era was all done Cars made after that are too well equipped, too well mannered, obey too many regulations, and don't probe the limits the way the cars in the muscle car era did. A new Mustang? Pffft. Do you see a new factory mustang with a huge factory equppied hood scoop (that works), with the words "429" in big block letters on it? Nope. It's not the styling of the real muscle cars, it was the style. As crude as a brick. Evil handling traits from torque induced oversteer and a heavy engine. Traction control should be under your right foot, not in a computer chip. You may quote me on that :grin: Muscle cars were brash and brutal. Newer cars are conformist and mild. Hey, it's not my fault, but it's true. Do you see cars that look like SCCA or NASCAR racers on the street anymore? Cars that really look like that, or cars that have similarities. Yes, I know about the Charger Daytona's dual life, and what makes the street car different. But that car is a great example of the wild nature of the muscle car. A WRX? how can that be compared? I don't care if a WRX is better or whatever, it looks like a 97 pound weakling compared to the Charger Daytona's Charles Atlas Muscle cars aren't saloons, runabouts, or motor carriages. No other type of car is a runabout or a saloon, their era has come and gone. So has the muscle car era
MUSCLE CAR american-slang An automobile, especially a sporty model, having high performance in power and speed. Source- Random house ~U.S. Government~ dictionary A muscle car is any automoble built with more power than is commonly deemed nessecary for daily tansportation, and is expressly geared towards a fun driving expirence The Stutz Bearcat was the first factory built muscle car, tho it was preceded by back yard hot rodders with lead filled pistons and lake pipes without a doubt. The 1955 Chrysler 300 kicked off the factory horsepower wars, followed closely by the 5-6-7 chevy's The 1964 LeMans with the GTO option package started the "youth market" muscle car movement, and kicked off the classic muscle car era. The 1967 Cobra 427 S.C. was the highest performance "off the showroom floor" automobile of the classic muscle car era. The 1978 Dodge "Lil red express" truck was the [government mandated] end of the classic muscle car era. The 1982 Mustang G.T. was the first of the modern muscle era. The "modern muscle cars" are still being produced today... Both by factorys and back yard hot rodders... AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT :laugh: Limiting the definition to "intermediates" leaves out 327 Chevy II's, Corvettes, 5-6-7 Chevy's, AMX's, Riv's, etc. Limiting it to "Big car engines" leaves out Boss 302's, Z-28's, GN's, etc. Limiting it to '64-'74 leaves out anything from the classic horsepower wars, like 5-6-7 chevy's, anything with a 409, or a flat-head or straight 8... As well as anything with a computer or turbo charger [almost] For the record, the term "Muscle Car" was coined in the early 80's by Hot Rod Magazine. Prior to that time, classic muscle had been refered to as "Super Cars" SUPER CAR american slang An automobile, usually a 2 seat sports car, engineered to provide the maximum possible performance Source- Random House ~U.S. Government~ Dictionary As Big Brother and the insurance companies conspired to kill off the american super car [muscle car], the term "super car" became associated with european high performance 2 seaters,,, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. The term "muscle car" is a made up word... Some guy somewhere at one time came up with the idea for that word, and HE used it to refer to a spacific group of automobiles that HE was thinking of... That does not mean that HE has an absolute patent on the word. It means whatever you want it to. :3gears:
Everybody has their own definition of what a musclecar is.........Musclecar is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Ask 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers (unless you ask 10 GTO owners). p GTO is DEFINITELY not the first musclecar......as Cris said, it was the first reckognized musclecar. The poncho guys hate it when someone says that, but it's true. As far as what I think was, I won't go there but it occurred well before 1930. There are endless candidates.......the Dusenberg is one of many that come to my mind. :bglasses:
So is a 1973 Mustang @ 3700 lbs a pony? or an intermediate? Is a 3100 lb 1963 Skylark special an intermediate or a compact? If a 1968 Chevy Nova is a compact, than what is a 1970 nova??? Keep in mind when you answer that the 70 nova is a re-bodied 69 camaro! If a 1971 Cuda or Challenger is a pony car, then why does it sit on a B-body frame and floor-pan? If a mustang is a pony, then why is the 74 based off a pinto compact? Are you saying that a Boss 429 or a ZL-1 Camaro can not possibly be muscle cars??? Would you call a 79 Lincoln Versailles or a 79 Cadillac Seville a pony??? Keep in mind that the Versailles is a re-bodied mid 70's Torino, which was a re-bodied 71-73 mustang, and the Seville is a re-bodied Nova [compact?] that was itself a re-bodied 69 camaro. Are you confused yet??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: A pony car is a group of automobiles built to compete directly with the mustang [and includes the mustang] [which was itself a re-bodied compact ford falcon] that offered a [relatively] compact body size combined with big car "style" [nice body lines, nice interior, a few upscale options] and was offered at an affordable price. This type of automobile appealed to single young women [secrataries] and young people. A "pony" typically has a 6 cylinder or small V8 with a 2V carb. Just because a car is a pony DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN NOT BE A MUSCLE CAR :rant: all the buyer had to do was check the big engine option box and BINGO! Instant muscle car! That's like saying a Stage1 convertible cant be a muscle car because it's a convertible.... Or a 1970 Plymouth Satellite 4 door factory ordered with a hemi and a 4 speed cant be a muscle car because it's a 4 door. All the terms "overlap" each-other. It's a convertible, and it's a big block Stage1--- it's a muscle car. It's a Corvette, and it's got the LS-6--- it's a muscle car. It's a 1968 Nova compact, and it's got the 300 hp 327 with a 4 speed--- it's a muscle car. It's a 1969 Mustang pony car, and it's got the Boss 429--- IT'S A STINKIN MUSCLE CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike- Not ranting at you personally, just trying to get my point across :TU:
Chris- Actually, the VAST majority of muscle cars were "strippers". No options at all except for the big engine, H.D. Tranny, and performance gears. The strippers got no radio, no power nothing, and no factory undercoating, so come about the mid 70's, all the gas hogging rust buckets with rubber floor mats [no carpet] went to the junk yards..... No kidding! On the other hand, the middle-aged guy who ordered his muscle car with power this, and convenience group that, and this option, and so on, and so on, also spent the extra $40 for the undercoating and rust protection.... Mister middle aged dude also typically had a garage to keep his car in, and he took better care of it. And starting in the early to mid 70's when performance cars became extinct, he was a little more likely to hang on to it a few years longer than usual... Finally, about the mid 80's when everyone re-discovered muscle cars, the strippers were looooong gone, but nicely optioned examples were hiding out in garages across the country just waiting to enter the market-place. It's the truth... I was there... I saw it first-hand.
Discounting Stutz,Duesenberg,etc., postwar muscle probably began with 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 -light ,smaller body style with biggest Olds 98 V8 engine. Then, there is the'55 Buick Century,'55 Chrysler 300, '56 Studebaker Goldenhawk,'57 Rambler Rebel that ran 15's in the 1/4, '57 Chevrolet w/fuel injection. We could make a long list here,but the term 'musclecar' in my opinion would have to start with the '64 GTO. I have heard of FORD people refer to the '65 Mustang as the first musclecar-whatever.
Hey... no problem man (backing slowly towards door) I was just, uhh...uhh... Seriously though, I must apologize as I knew I was stirring the pot when I posted that. I just always thought that since the '64 Goat was widely credited as the first muscle car (big V8 from a full sized in an intermediate body) then the Goat and all its mid-sized brethren were muscle cars and the Camaros, Cudas ect were pony cars and the Vette and Cobra were American sports cars. But I really don't have a strong opinion on it as there is no real definitive definition. Sorry if I got ya worked up but more caffeine and cigarettes should help :laugh:
My latest acquisition. 72 Stage 1. No AC, no power steering. No guages, except a big old 70s era SUN tach attached to the steering column that obstructs the speedometer. No Handy Mats. Hardly an extra ounce of options. Specially ordered stripped down with a Stage 1, TH400, and posi for street racing. P2.75 tires out back now. It has Ziebart undercoating. It's not a muscle car because it has undercoating? HAHAHA. Darryl, I agree with the rest of what you said but not that part. My 68GS400 also has undercoating but is otherwise a no option car. It must have been a special order to get a 4spd bench seat. I wonder why the original owner would order a 400 4spd with an open rear though. My 71GS455 4spd Convert is also stripped down, and had an open rear. No undercoating and it rusted to pieces. Now getting totally rebuilt. I wish it did have rust proofing in hind sight. Why on earth were people ordering stripped down big blocks with non-posi rear ends. The logic totally escapes me. A muscle car should have it. And as far as rust proofing goes, it's not such a bad thing. As far as the definition goes... Maybe we should look at it from a different angle. "Any car that is capable of scaring the crap out of yourself when you put the hammer down with visions of the afterlife swirling in your head while struggling not to lose control of the vehicle."
Any car produced that placed any thought at all toward horsepower. Is a dual quad Riviera a muscle car? You bet your a$$! Is a tri-power Grand Prix a muscle car? You bet your a$$!
