Although this isn't Buick related to the specifics, it does tie in, considering that a few people have told me Buicks are no longer made in the USA (Canada I believe?).............anywayz, I work for a machine shop in Franklin Park, IL. It's my dad's shop. I'm a sales rep. and my job is to seek out companys that use machine shops, like us, to manufacture whatever part it is they need. Perhaps a pizza-making machine company needs die plates made to stamp the dough into pizza shapes, etc. We then make the dies, and we get paid and are happy. They get their dies, sell their machines to Kraft, Red Baron, Tombstone, etc., and they're happy too. It is hard finding new companies. Everyone is slow and hurting. The ones really hurting have long left the USA. Motorola no longer has any manufacturing plants in the USA. My uncle's electronics manuf. plant went to Hong Kong. The ironic twist: They used to fly him there all the time (he's an electrical engineer) to help setup the new location........only to lose his job because he helped set up the foreign operations. Like he was asked to help dig his own grave, so that a cheap asian laborer could then throw the dirt on top of his career. I'm venting out of frustration. I cannot find much work. My question is.........who else on this board has felt this in their jobs? I'm sure there's plenty of you out there in the manufacturing industry that feels the same way and sees the same thing. Please vent with me............it'll make me feel better:ball: :ball: PS -a week ago, I was at a hardware store, and I saw a pin. It said "be American, buy American!" I turned it around. It was made in China.
well, the problem is we went and did such a good job of getting ourselves guaranteed workers rights, fair pay, minimum wage, paid vacations, etc. etc. that companies either have to manufacture abroad where they can pay 3 cents an hour or put up prices. If they do that, then guess what , nobody buys from them and they go bust. I've seen a bunch of famous local and national manufacturing companies go bust trying to manufacture here. Even service industries are going overseas now. I am in England, and when I call several large British companies on their local number I am actually speaking to a "Customer Service Representative" in Bombay or Bangalor, India. I wonder if there will be ANY jobs left in this country in 5 years! Especially since we don't fix anything any more either.
The sad truth of it (and Im guilty as well) is....... We all want to make a decent amount of money....and spend it on nice consumer goods - but not have those goods cost too much. The low-dollar grunt worker class in our country is a dying breed. 100 years ago, this was primarily made up of immigrant workers who were beyond grateful to do more than an honest days work for less than a days wages. We now have people who can live a better lifestyle by staying home (and mooching off the system) than if they worked minimum wage job(s) If it costs $3,000 to build a TV here, vs $500 overseas because of such factors as plant safety, labor wages, employess benifits, etc etc......and you needed a TV..... Would you go to BestBuys and by G.I Joe 36" TV for $3,000 or a Mitsubishi for $500 ??? Forget it....you cant even get the $3,000 GI Joe TV - they were put out of business 20 years ago What is interesting is that when this started, post WWII ewveryone knew you were substituting price for quality.....but then something funny happened. Qaulity rose while so did the price !! Today, you have the big 3 auto manufacturers in the position of making an inferior product for a similar or cheaper cost.....just to try and compete !! Somewhere the fundimental ideology changed Personally.....Yes !! I would Love to have the option of buying an Amercian made TV (etc...etc....) but not for $3,000. Im sorry, but not every type of job deserves a $70,000/year salary plus benefits !! I was FLOORED to learn that, after overtime, the GARBAGE MAN that picks up my trash twice a week brought home almost as much as i do. The Train conductor that punches my ticket in the morning makes almost as much as I do and has a better pension program. Its a vicious cycle.....and by wanting more ourselves, we've priced ourself out of the ball game
I know exactly how you feel! Same in the IT industry. Many of our jobs are being outsourced overseas at a fraction of the labor cost (done for corporate profits). If this doesn't stop soon, we'll all have to find jobs overseas to work for American companies.
The other part is, which has to do with workers rights and such. Companies have moved to robotic assembly. The factory worker, is becoming obsolete. In turn the companies, move manufacturing overseas because of cheaper land, less taxes, and cheap labor to put the product in a box. Technology is the demise of the common worker. There will be people necessary to run the assembly plants or program them, but it doesn't take many. An example, a while back I went to a machine shop that made air plane parts. They had a CNC, which had a robotic arm, which picked up the aluminum stock, put it on the table, then machined it. After that, the part was moved to another area, by machine to be placed on a cart. Another example, I was at a electronics plant. Automated manufacturing, the parts come a spool that are loaded. Even machines did the quality control.
Luckily our company is diverse enough that we haven't noticed the "slump" the rest of the country seems to be in. (We deal mostly in the mfg business, selling our services and equipment to automotive related mfg plants) But I do see tons of problems with the way "big business" is done today. And sorry if I offend anyone, but I blame it 90% on unions. I hate them with a passion. They disgust me for the most part. They have become so intertwined in the US political game, that they are damn near untouchable too. I deal mostly with "american" mfg plants, but also spend quite a bit of time in "foriegn" plants as well. (Mostly Japanese) The Japanese plants are much more efficient, cleaner, and wealthy. And for the most part, most of the employees seem happier with their jobs too. "American" non-union plants seem to be alot more like the Japanese plants. "Union plants" are so riddled with inefficiencies and beuracracy(sp?) that it's amazing anything ever gets done. Most of the workers would just as soon throw a wrench at you than to help you with anything. My favorite "union story".... I was once in a union plant quite a few years ago... I forklift driver was sitting on his firklift in the middle of an aisleway reading a newspaper. I asked what he was doing. He told me: "See that extension cord running across the aisle?" Me - "yes" Him - "I can't run it over, and it's not my job to move it. I'm waiting for an electrician to walk by so he can move it for me." ou: It was a 120V extension cord that wasn't even being used. The end was 5 feet away from the aisle in plain view. He sat there the whole time I was in the plant. Maybe an hour? Sickening. Another... A local union plant.... A guy pulled his truck into the plant and was washing and waxing it when he was supposed to be working. His supervisor had the day off. His supervisor dropped in to pick something up and caught him washing his truck "on the clock" He immediately fired him because he was a trouble employee anyways. The guy got his job back within a week. Ya know why?? His superviser wasn't supposed to be there that day (because he had the day off), therefor he shouldn't have ever caught him screwing off, therefor he had no authority to fire him. Last one.. I promise :gt: My previous employer (small business) had outgrown there plant and wanted to lease part of a very large plant in our town and renovate it so it would fit our needs. It needed alot of wiring, on overhead crane, some new concrete, some offices built inside. Just general contractor type work. We applied for a government loan to help with the transition. In order to get federal money (it's still a LOAN mind you), we had to offer the work publically (state-wide), and demand by law that "prevailing wages" are used so that the union contractors could be competative! What a bunch of crap. Screw the union contractors. The cost almost doubled just because the unions are so intertwined with the government. After we got the ridiculous bids we told the state to shove there money and we did it ourselves. It put a real bad bind on the company for a few years because we were so small, but it was much cheaper in the long run. Yeah... unions might be nice to work for, because of crap like that.... but they're ruining our economy. Instead of some local contractor getting a nice size job, no-one got anything since they had to raise theor prices so high just so the unions could be competative!! :af: This isn't 1850 anymore. There's plenty of laws in effect to protect workers' rights. We don't need the mafia (oops... ) I mean unions to protect workers. Sorry for my ranting.... you've struck a nerve with me. I see this crap all the time, and it's disgusting that some of these people are raking in as much or more than me and are protected by the mafia (oops.... I did it again...I mean UNION) so they can just keep on doing whatever they feel like. o No:
You are totally right. As a matter of fact I was part of the I.B.E.W. union when I was doing summer gigs with Ameritech. I swear, as fun as the job was for a college student to have (way too much union-protected screw off time) I soon began to wonder how the hell Ameritech stayed in business. Well despite the fact that they were (and still are as SBC) a monopoly by many characteristics, the union protection was wearing the company thin. Their stock price plummeted with the rest of the economy, and all these slackers there (not all were, but a big group was) saw their stock options diminish in value along with the rest of the company. SBC bought 'em out and quickly installed GPS on all the vehicles. Many were caught screwin' off 'cuz of the new system, but of course, their protection gave them another chance with a warning, eventhough most of these guys deserved to get canned. That aside, I simply wonder and worry about what globalization will do to this economy in the next 20 years. It seems that service jobs are screwed too, according to alistair's post, and my own experiences of dealing with those annoying Bombay telemarketers. (Did you know that they're split up into groups and taught a regional dialect and informed of the local news to help make small talk and disguise their foreign location when they speak to you on the phone?!) Many people say that an economy w/out manufacturing is doomed to fail...........so I dunno, 'cuz it seems we're on the right track. Also, why do importers get away with so little taxation while home-based companies get raped? Also......how long will the ever so evil and dispicable insurance sector continue before we say "enough!"? (no offense to people working for insurance companies..........but they are doing a nice job killing businesses. Many doctors don't even want to practice anymore. Will I one day have to go to Bombay for dental work?)
I'd give it a try. Personally, I'd love to be part of a white collar union. I've been out of college for 8 years. Five of them spent working 55+ hour weeks for 40 hour pay. People have to pay their dues but give me a break! my .02
Anyone notice certain local service industry "professionals" starting to charge drive-time to their absorbitant service calls. Talking about electrical contractors, plumbers, HVAC guys. What a crock :af: Roger
Oh, this is a most timely subject for me. I was part of crafting and delivering this announcement yesterday and dealing with the fallout today. 110 people will lose their jobs in a little over a year. Almost all of them work for me. I'm disgusted and beaten. I'm sitting at my desk here getting ready to go talk to the second shift. My goal is to stop all the ugly rumors that have popped up since the announcement. I've spent the last two days hand-holding and counseling. I've also tried to re-establish management's integrity. So far I'm doing ok, but it's getting tougher as people have time to move from shock to denial to anger. And I can't blame them. Most of the people who will be affected are single parents scraping to make ends meet. That weekly paycheck puts food on the table and a roof over their heads. There isn't much extra for fun. Certainly, none of them have classic cars, unless you consider an '89 cavalier that's ready to die a classic. And where will they go when the layoff finally arrives? There's mostly vacant brick building around here with idle smoke stacks and busted out windows. Relics of the Northeast's industrial age. And so who can we blame? Who can *I* blame?!? Who is at fault? Alan W, I fully agree with what you said. So can we blame society? Maybe a little. Can we blame corporations who move to lower cost areas? Are they really greedy? Or are they forced to either move to exploit low cost countries in the face of rising competition and falling prices or go under because they've chosen to stand apart and make the $3,000 G.I Joe TV? I think some of each of those things applies to big business. Some greediness with a healthy dose of desperation. Unions? I'm not sure they help, but there are a lot of non-union jobs running for the borders, whether it be Mexico or China. The unions had a time and place to fight corporate America when people were taken advantage of and were maimed or underpaid. Now unions need to be part of the solution. Surely most realize that? At least I hope they do. Here's where I do think at least some of the problem lies. Government. How many people are still in favor of NAFTA? Let me see a raise of hands. I thought so, not too many. How many of you think it's fair that China's tariff on US imports is MANY MANY times higher than the US tariff on Chinese imports? Oh, you don't like that one either? Some of you may have read about it, but recentlly consumers of steel (stamping, machining industries) are complaining loudly that the tariffs on foreign steel are too high and affecting their ability to compete. OK, so now industry is going to try to force the government to remove barriers to stepping past US produced material in favor of foreign materials. That will devastate the AMERICAN steel industry. Great. But is it really the government? Well, they're in a pickle too. If, for example, they don't do something about those steel tariffs, the consumers of the steel won't be able to compete. If they can't compete, businesses close and the steel producers are devastated anyway. Quite a pickle. OK, so let's go back to society. I keep thinking about the buying preferences of a lot of foreign countries and compare that to the US. For eaxample, in a country like Germany, German's buy German made products. They are extremely nationalistic in their buying preferences. OK, so their economy sucks, but I think that may be for other reasons, like never recovering from the reunification. Other countries buy exactly the same way. I haven't seen as many "Buy American" bumper stickers as I used to. So, are there are some societal factors in this manufacturing mess? Probably. Most people in Walmart look at the price tags and not the country of origin. That is exactly what Alan was saying about wanting to make lots of $ and buy goods for little $. I think the bottom line is that it's very complicated issue. It's not as simple as stomping out unions, or raising tariffs, or napalming Mexico and nuking China. It's like a big ball of tangled twine. One knot leads to the next. I'll tell you one thing that scares the cr@p out of me is that with each job that leaves for foreign soil, our great country loses it's ability as a great and powerful production machine. We lose our skill in making things. How long before we're only service industry oriented? With the political climate and unrest oin the world, that fact leaves a big pit in my stomach. What are we going to do? Buy the electronics for ours weapons from the electronics meccas in China? Are we going to buy our plastic raw material pellets from some middle eastern oil rich country? Those things, and hundreds more examples, all seem likely in the near future. We will soon forget how to manufacture. OK, so I haven't offered solutions. That wasn't asked in this thread, and besides I don't have any right now. I have too many questions and not enough answers. You wanted venting? You got it. Sorry about the long diatribe, but I need to get this out and this thread was the perfect opportunity. For now I think I'll turn off my computer, lock my office door, drive home and then get slightly drunk. Many of you may already think I've started after reading this. Sorry if it meanders, it's been a long day. And when I sober up I think I'll start my run for Congress. This mess has to be sorted out and fixed. I think the government needs to play a big, yet careful, part of that.
Geez Ken, And here I was feeling bummed about having to send some employees home early this week. And having to call a few at home before they left for work, to tell them not to come in because we were so slow this week. Thanks for putting things in perspective for me. :spank:
You guys are correct on the unions general attitude, I have worked directly with them since finishing school for over 13 yrs and the stories I could tell would blow your mind! And Ken hit it square on the head about the future of the Country!!, I have been scared as hell lately watching things unfold across the counrty and with us all online you can see it getting pretty bad in some of the states. I dont have the answers but I hope it kicks loose soon or we may fall into a Depression again, They said it could not happen but i say one more year at the present rate and things have to fall apart around here, I talked it over with a buddy and we have kept one finger on the pulse of Business and it dont look good guys at all. Ken, go sit in the Green car take about three BIG deep breaths through the nose!!! That old Fisher Interior will bring a smile to your face, it works for me, something about how these old Interiors smell!!! I have been trying to figure out how to have a chemist make it up for me so I can bottle it up and sell it as calogne to the car guys!. Bud
I cant say anything bad about unions. My whole family, except for me, belong to the UAW. I am a robot programmer myself, and I know first hand how things operate in a union shop. When I go into the plants for a job install or change over I am not allowed to touch a robot teach pendant. My role is strictly suppervision. I have "worked" 95 + hour work weeks without doing a single thing. As far as the automated tooling costing jobs, that is true to a certain extent. Technology also creates a lot of jobs. The reason automation is used is not completely to eliminate jobs. The build quality is far superior with automation. The robot welds in exactly the same place with the correct amount of heat, pressure, and time required. As for the cheap labor in third world countries it is sickening. I have seen it first hand. I spent several months in Mexico working on the Dodge Ram and Chrysler PT Cruiser lines.
Manufacturing is not dying, only DISTRIBUTION! We still need the products, but it just isn't necessary to get it from the stores, anymore. Get it DIRECTLY from the Manufacturer! Get rid of the "middleman"! Maybe you should do like me (and a LOT of others), and get a website to sell your products, you might move more that way!:TU: Let the "customers" come to YOU! It only cost me $100, 5 years ago, but my website is still on and making money FOR me, everyday (24/7)!:bglasses: They've said it before, "The "Industrial age" is GONE! "WELCOME" to the "Information" age!":Smarty: :TU: :bglasses:
Advice taken. In fact not only a few breaths, but a turn of the key and a trip around town. My daughter who's 10 went with me. She told me the "Green Car" is her favorite car. She also inquired what would become of the car "when you get old and die". She's taking the opportunity of some alone time to ace out her brother in getting it willed to her. I suppose I should feel offended that she's looking forward to my death, but somehow it makes me smile that the Buick chromosomes were passed to her. I went to work today and answered a bunch more questions, squashed a handful of rumors. Someone above said distribution is dying, not manufacturing in this country. I think distribution is merely changing and manufacturing is clearly dying. Not a great time to have a career in manufacturing. It would be great to sell what we make on a website, but we are a contract manufacturer and we're making surgical instruments, not consumer goods. Yessiree, quite a pickle.
that's the facts, jack. Interesting, My 6yr old boy is already stating what he would like when I am gone, mainly do to the fact we put grandpa to rest last weekend so he has overheard some of the discussions on where stuff is going. I agree if I had a alott of money I would probably buy stock in one of the Big shippers, most everyone is buying online, Is it just me or do you stand in Wal-Mart and hold something in your hand and say how in the world can they sell this and make money???, Meaning its a decent product at a great price, then I wonder who made it, shipped it, packaged it, then retailed it for $1.99 UNREAL. It is killing business in our country with all the costs of doing business, I just opened up a Trophy, Awards & Engraving business here at home two months ago, I cannot believe all the costs it takes to open a small business, its almost like they dont want you to do so! I have a mountain of Bills for Lics, taxes, INS, yellow page adds, phone lines, ETC, ETC.. And that is with one employee ME!, now if I had to rent a space and pay someone to work, pay for there INS or part of it is more the case these days I could not be competitive at all. I probably would go belly up shortly. I now understand fully how tuff it is to make a buck out here and when my ex Employer would come to us and say we had a decent year but we need to drop Dental and up the co pay on your INS, and raises will be 5%, Sorry. Bud.
We all cut each others hair now.... Brilliant deductions regarding MFN and Nafta Ken! Also, some other super thoughts in this post but I can't go along with all the blame on unions or the theory that we will get something cheap because it is made outside our borders. Nike shoes and Dodge Rams prove that just because foreigners aren't paid squat, it doesn't necessarily mean we will be buying a cheaper product. It may, for some period of time, translate into more profits for the manufacturer though! Born in Pittsburgh, PA in 1964, I was raised in the heart of the former steel producing capitol of the world. Many of my neighbors worked for J&L {later LTV}, USS {later USX}, Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel, Republic {later Weirton Steel} and many other mills in the area. My father-in-law was a 26 year employee of USS when I met my wife in 1983. In a very short period of time, I witnessed the death of the steel industry in my hometown. It is nearly impossible for me to put into words the sorrow I felt witnessing the loss of career for so many friends and family. In the towns of Homestead and Aliquippa, mills that spread for miles and employed many thousands of people disappeared. On the southside of Pittsburgh an old LTV site is just now getting a few smaller staffed hi-tech companies where once there were thousands good paying union jobs. Deindustrialization laid waste to my hometown. That is why Bruce Springsteen's music has always appealed so much to me. I blame corporate greed [read lack of capital investments when it could have been done during profitable times], lack of governmental help [read protective tarriffs from foreign dumping and terrible environmental demands], the developement of plastics, and so many other things. The steel industry actually lost a lot of momentum just because of being scaled back. The train tracks in my home town ran nearly non-stop. In one direction the tracks carried the coal for the coke ovens. In the other direction came everything steel you could think of! The same with river traffic. Years ago Neville Island's Dravo docks were full of barge construction. Once the industry died so did the docks and the tracks! Personally, I have been long convinced we can't survive without making things in this country. I have made every attempt to buy the GI joe product no matter how expensive. I am an aircraft mechanic for Delta. It maybe simplified reasoning but not many Chinese fly Delta. A fellow working at a stamping mill here in the states just may fly my airline if I buy his product! If you want to read a fantastic book about Unions, Steel Corporations, towns-people, ect. then check into this book by William Serrin entitled Homestead: The Glory and Tragedy of an American Steel Town. It is superb! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/081291886X/104-3588759-7050340?vi=glance
Ken..........nice reply. I feel bad now 'cuz I thought I had it hard. Nothing worse than telling someone who's already struggling financially that they won't be working much longer. here's a question for the older people (I was born in '79 ) .........how do you compare the economy now to the way it was in the '70s? I've heard many people talk about the tough times in the 70's, so I am curious to know how these times compare?
`scuse a 'Canadian chiming in (if you can tell the difference in our economies please let me know) but I may have some evidence for your theories. Alberta is mostly a commodity economy (oil, gas, wheat, beef) which is typically low-paid high volume. It's always tough to get work but, thing is, there are jobs to be had up here for machinists, labourers, mid-technical, and engineers. Why? Alberta is, for the most part, union-free. There's no sales tax. Our debt load is almost eliminated. The current government is company-friendly. The Fair Trading Act is strictly enforced. It's not perfect, there's corporate greed, stupid cutbacks & outsourcing... but compared to Ontario and a lot of the States I've worked in it's MEASURABLY easier to get a job out here. We don't have a lot of the high-dollar manufacturing that other areas do but we're supporting a lot of other provinces who do! It's chalked up to diversified economy and government regulations. Again, not perfect, but at least it's geared towards fostering jobs. It's the primary reason I'm living out here in the sticks, I can get work nearly right away when some bonehead cuts back. In my opinion the job issue is, and always will be the #1 gov't issue. Certainly helps prove what a lot of you are saying, just some theories, flame away.
Id say thats something bad to say about Unions !!! Im not blaming you personally Chris.....but isn't this one of the problems not solutions ???!!!??? ....."An honest day's pay for an honest day's work"
