He said "if this is the heartbeat of America then America's in a lot of trouble"

It's not the Union's fault.

How many Unions they got in China?
Mark, i dare say if it were not for Unions fighting for a fair wage and humane working conditions all these years .....you might not have the standard of living that you now enjoy.

Peace WildBill

 

Bill,
Believe me, I'm the last guy who wants jobs to go to China. It's flat out wrong even if nothing more than on a moral basis in my opinion. My company has gone there too.
You are correct. The unions did fight for a fair wage and humane conditions, but that was in the past. People don't need unions to guarantee "humane working conditions" anymore. Just ask the EEOC, ACLU, OSHA and all the lawyers. The unions have outlasted their usefulness. They are not stopping jobs from going overseas but rather encouraging it.

 

Question?

As a partner in a small business that took a direct hit economically after "911", I, as well as my partners took pay cuts to stay in business and never cut hours or pay of salaried or hourly employees. Would your "Union" support that? Currently, I make less than I did in 1998. All of my employees make more than they did in 1998. Also note, with the tax incentives offered under the current administration, we were able to invest in new equipment to broaden our service structure and therefore offer new products in the marketplace. The world and technology is changing at a very progressive rate. Employees and business must change/adapt to survive. Many of you guys may have done the same or similar things for 25+ years. Those days are over. Many people in skilled labor positions may end up doing many different things during such a timeframe in the future.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but this is my reality.

-Mike 72staged

 

Bill
It's been a couple of decades since I worked union but I can't remember ever having a vote on weather or not to send jobs overseas while in a union. I can remember three steel companies joining together in a steel producing union in Brazil while our government was suporting the Brazilian dictatorship that kept labor cheap then complaining they couldn't compete with Brazillian steel, that the union you mean?
judd

 

I agree about the union thing..........too much of a good thing always hurts.

The fact is, this China/Mexico thing is hurting all of us. I am self employed, I do small engine repair. Now that Murray has built a plant in China, their junk is showing up here for a fraction of what the real stuff costs. (their American made stuff was crap too)

I learned that this week when a good customer of mine bought one of these throw aways instead of buying a good one from me b/c it was "cheaper". What this translates to is now Toro and Ariens have to cut costs more, pay their workers less in order to compete, and likely be forced to move their factories to foreign soil also. It really hurts me b/c now who is going to want to spend more than a few bucks to fix a snowblower that cost less than $200? It's cheaper to buy a new one. This happenned to me when I was in the TV repair business.......now you can get 27" stereo color TV's with PIP for less than $150! A pic tube for one of these sets costs $400 alone.......would you fix it?

We are becoming a throw away society.........and the American worker has been thrown away with it. NOBODY is going to be spared. :rant:

 

Joe,
You raise a valid point here that I don't think many have considered. We have become a "throw away" society and many folks have lost their jobs because of the great strides in technology and automation. There is no such thing as a TV repair business anymore. I remember while in High School hand held calculators were the new rage and they cost a fortune. Now my kid can get one (even in a watch) out of the gumball machine for a quarter or free in a ceral box.
Sadly, people are willing to spend less and to do it more often (many times for the same product). We are the richest country on the planet and yet we throw more money away then we care to admit.

 

have a friend

Have a very good friend that works as an A/C tech on giant chilling systems in commercial buildings. He belonged (past tense) to the local plumbing and pipefitters union. He now has higher hourly pay, more vacation time and a better health insurance plan after exiting the union. I fully understand the original purpose of the union methodology/idealogy. In my eyes the union of intention was hijacked and was and is a "cash cow" for whomever can control it. History proves that if one takes the time and has diligence to study and observe.


-Mike 72staged

 

Amen.
And now your friend can look forward to knowing that when pay review time comes up he can be confident in the fact that any increase in pay he receives will be based on his own performance/efforts and not having to worry about contract negotiations at midnight to determine it for him just because a union thinks he and his peers should all be rewarded exactly the same.

 

Automation is another factor that destroyed manufacturing jobs.

When I was in high school, I got invited to visit a large machining facility. Around 100k sqft, total staff on site about 60. Why so little people, robots.

Got a tour of a robotic CNC, the machinist is merely a computer operator. They just tell it heres the part to make, and load it up with aluminum stock. Once loaded up, the machine ran all day making several hundred pieces, on it's own.

Another place I visited made electronics. Well, electronics made electronics. Only took 1 to 2 people per assembly line, as a robot moved the blank circuits from a hopper. As it moved down the line, machines placed parts, soldered, etc. The 2 people needed, 1 to load the machine with blank boards, and parts spools.... another to watch it do Q&A of parts.

There are a number of factors involved in why jobs are being lost. We can't blame any 1 group or individual as it took everyone to make it that way. If we want to fix the problem, everyone needs to make a group effort to fix it.

 

Outsoursing

How many of you buy Trico wipers for you vehicles. They closed two plants in Buffalo, moved them to Mexico, at $3.00 an hour, and then charged $2.00 MORE for blades. Gotta love it.

 

I bought a Trico set, course the local stores only carried them for my Buick.

 

religion, politics, and abortion.....we all have our opinions. I have never witnessed any good come out of discussing any of these subjects, unless you happen to be in a group of like minded folks. To stay friends, it is best to avoid these subjects. Passions run way too deep these days to have a "light discussion" on these matters.

 

Frank, I have faith in the members of this website. I don't think anybody has taken anything here personal yet...........I started this thread and I can delete it (I think) if things turn nasty.

 

we're not hamsters

With all due respect, I happen to enjoy other points of view. We all do have a common passion which creates bonding atmosphere here on the board. All of us are from all corners of this country as well as other countries. We have had different upbringings and work at different jobs with different life experiences which influence our opinions. To listen is to each other is to learn and become informed. All of us have something to offer. The fact that we have this common arena to share is tremendous. I think the fact that we each know at least one thing about every other person on this board (Buicks) gives an immediate ear of respect. I see an amazingly intelligent and respectful group of people on this board. Just think, if Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison and a few others all agreed, we would be the....."Soviet Union". Also... you are correct. Too much of this would not be fun. Our primary passion here is to share our "Buicks".

_Mike 72staged

 

I like these discussions. For the most part, things go pretty well. It is nice to get different points of view on a topic. If people didn't discuss issues such as this, there would be no hope in anything done about them.

 

I just don't understand how you can be....
Pro Life AND Pro War o No:

PEACE! WildBill

 

Good discussion. I'm no economic genius-some basic human traits come to mind-greed and jealousy. When things are going well and you are 'on top' those not there are often unhappy and taking their shots. Also, those who 'made it' feel empowered and good about themselves-keep a foot on those below and not uncommon to enrich themselves far beyond any sense.
I recall at a young age learning about hipocracy.
It's a world economy now. I don't think we can ever go back. The Chinese and other workers are on an upward trend as many of ours are heading south. As said, we have to continue to find other and new areas of technology to lead.
As for me, fortunately I had a pretty good working career in the late 60's thru last year, and am very happy to be out of the 'rat race'!!

 

A few things to think about other than taxes

We can ship Iron ore to China, they process it and ship it back here for less than we can do it here?
Why? Some may say Unions and how much you have to pay the workers but there are other elements. Health care cost in the country cause insurance cost to increase. Paid by the employer and sometimes by the employee. (if not a state employee here) Workmans comp. paid by the employer that is very high. SS taxes paid by the employee are matched by the employer (about 14% total of wages). OSHA training, government regulations for the environment and workers, the list goes on like IRAmatching, paid vacation, retirement plan...

In China I dont think these high cost are there.

Next look at the youth of America and their work ethic. I know it was said about us but everything is easier for them like it was for you compared to your parents. Today I see kids that think its better to be cool and a smart a$$ in school than to learn. Evertbody pokes fun at the nerd or book worm in school that is trying to improve themself. The schools here each student has a computer in class and we are throwing alot of money at kids that dont want to learn. They want in and out, so they can hang out at the mall. Daddy has them covered with a car and gas card. (that is the kid 20 years down the road that whines about there are no good paying jobs)

In China they have the drive to work and to try improve there economic position more than the kid getting things handed to them.

Think about everything that is increasing in price more than anything else in this country. Medical services, homes, drugs and government cost. Everthing else increases by 4 to 8%. With exception of the drugs none of the other related can't be outsourced to another country. Hence the big increase in cost.

Look at the cost to restore a car! If you could send it over seas to a place that charged $5 a hour to do a -perfect frame off resto you would.

My friends uncle worked at the Fort plant for 30 years driving cars on to trucks or rail cars and retired at 55 with full pension and made 75,000 a year when he retired. In Mpls. Hertz airport rental office they have refugees driving cars to and from the off site lots and clean up shops that make 7-8 bucks an hour. o No: Basicly the same job in my eyes. How much would the rental car be if they paid them 40,000 a year???????

Thats all for now, must go clean used parts for my 64 that I cant ship overseas to exploit the 3rd world countries........

 

ain't THAT the truth!
________
Grape ape

 

It's easy to understand. It's not black and white.

I don't look at it as pro anything. Labels are labels. I'm not rehashing the war again. No way. I'm done with that.

But what the hell does pro life (anti-abortion etc.) have to do with anything in comparison to national security? I'm dizzy from that comparison. I mean, I see the "irony" you are trying to point out, but they are mutually exclusive.