Has anyone ever block filled a sbb 350?

I think we're going with the wax idea, seems like it will be very controllable. The Styrofoam micro dots idea I didn't like so much because of the drainage effect it could have letting the liquid drain from the fill before it had time to setup, the same reason I didn't want to use sand. Although sand would work great if epoxy was poured on it first so the sand wouldn't suck the water out of the fill and probably harden more than the hard block with all the mixed water with hardener mixed in draining into the sand. But would that thin layer of epoxy break off and block the coolant flow? I don't want to risk that.


I think acetone might dissolve the expandable foam, not sure but that doesn't matter because I wouldn't use that anyway, not controllable enough.

Which brings us to the lard or the wax, I think the wax will be a bit more unmovable than the lard though so wax is looking like the winner.




Derek

 

The idea to fill it upside down is a valid one I am watching and if it works out well it may be a good option... Time will tell. And with all the added bore and stroke I would be concerned about the block as well.

The crank that broke the crank had light eagle rods and light ross forged pistons internally balanced... The white whale engine did in fact end up cracking the block at the mains but only after they raised the boost highs than the 1021 hp runs, ran 8 second quarter miles etc. that was using a eagle billet crank and good rods .. Contact the people who made the parts for the engine and you will see it was real.. You think scot shaffirov would make up a story about an engine... The reason the whole thing got removed and threads deleted was because of the controversy between eagle and shaffirov after one of our V8 Buick members started yelling at eagle trying to force them to make him a custom crank. The crank had been custom made by an eagle rep for them but then never put on the books officially. The under the table deal got both the eagle employee and Shaffirov in hot water and strained the relationship. And he was buying tons and tons of eagle cranks so it caused a big issue until the relationship was mended.

All the parts from the engine were saved as it was just a crack found not a explosive mess. I believe bill now has a girdle and will build a block once the alum heads arrive.

You were asking about what class Dan is racing in here is some info:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?215851-L-SA-at-the-Nats

Edited to fix typos.

 

the over bore that cracked was 030.

the first lost #4 cyl*broke side out of block behind motor mount.

the 2nd cracked # 2 cyl top down 1.5 inch vertical crack. caught this in rering hone that I do each season on the race engine.

I believe that block flexes with stock motor mounts that is required in stock eliminator racing.

when racing using block end plates to mount engine in car this may not be an issue.

this would not be a issue in a engine for the street. What % of the time is engine run at 100% on a street car?

Race is 100% every pass.

on a .100 over bore ... good luck.

Dan

 

That is very interesting thabjs for sharing Dan... I believe my turbo Buick 350 is also ripping hard at the engine mount area of the block as well because we keep blowing the head gasket on number 3 right at the mount... Possibly due to distortion of the block. Derek Pointed this potential issue out to me and ao we are doing front and mid plates for the alum headed engine.

 

Hey Dan, great info thanks.

I have a question for you, were the blocks you used sonic tested? If so how thick did they check?

Like I keep saying, Andy's block sonic tested so good that the block fill isn't necessary to strengthen the cylinders. But I like the idea of better ring seal you get with fill, plus if the sonic test missed something the fill is extra insurance. And to help stiffen the block in case Andy wants to just run motor mounts instead of using a motor plate of some sort, I think that's possibly why Sean was blowing head gaskets on the #3 cylinder on the chassis dyno so a little bit of fill might be helpful in this situation as well to keep the deck from distorting from the engine torqueing pulling in the drivers side mount. And in Dan's situation the opposite side of the M/M area broke the outer casting without fill. Andy's block's cylinders are thick enough for the added stroke, bore and power, but the outer shell of the light casted block might not be up to the task as much as the thicker cylinders are. :eek2:

If this engine works out good Andy can always upgrade the crank to a billet one if he wants to crank up the boost to 20 psi, what the gaskets are rated for. Easy enough to do knowing the bob weight of what the assembly is now, all he has to do is simply order a billet crank with the bob weight he needs and he wouldn't even need to take the heads off to swap the crank and it would be a bolt in. I think he only wants to run 8 to 10 psi, should be good enough for 700 + HP range. I'm shooting for the HP to be in the 500 range with around 8.5 to 9:1 compression N/A, the extra cubes should help get us there. We should be able to easily get that if Henry does the port work on the heads. :Brow:

Like I said, its either going to work or its not. I like my odds though. :TU:







Derek

 

I believe that engine was real, but like every sbb 350 that posts high power for some reason disappears from the public's eyes. o No:

Andy has been a member here and active poster for many years, I don't see him going away after his engine is done, unlike all the rest of the high powered sbb 350 builds. Why do they all stop posting? The Bill Mah 1021 HP 350, stopped posting, the Finishline Performance sbb 350, stopped posting, the 550 HP sbb 350 that was dynoed in a typhoon, stopped posting. Just a few of the white whale sbb 350s never heard from again, why is that? uzzled:

If his engine fails, I'm sure Andy will let everyone know what happened, unlike all the rest. On the other hand, if his engine is running very good he'll report on that as well, which if he maintains a good tune he should have years of fun from it.(as long as the crank holds up ray

Hey, wasn't that you that called eagle trying to buy a sbb 350 billet crank from them? LOL


To tell the truth, those guys names mean nothing to me so I have no idea if in they would make up the story about the sbb 350? I'll take YOUR word for it though, if YOU say so then I believe it.

The heat from when you asked eagle to make you a crank should be gone by now, there is no reason they couldn't come back and start a new thread when they resurrect this build with a new block and the al. heads(just have them not mention who made a crank for them). I take it that their heads cracked as well if they can't use those anymore with a new block? Their heads were supposed to be the highest flowing factory sbb 350 heads that were ever flowed, why would they need al. heads with boost?




Derek

 

The pro charged 350 is still being run but they don't post on the forum due to an issue about advertising controversy.

As I said before the 551 hp build is still running great in a 76 Regal street car but he doesn't race.

This is the shop that did bill mahs engine. The heads are not cracked but they did have previous issues with cracking at the max ported level as its just really thin at that point and 18 PSI of boost does not help. So going with the alum heads is the obvious solution to the head cracking issue at that power level...

I have not talked with bill lately will have to call him.

http://www.shafiroff.com

 

Yeah, something to do with the Chinese 455 timing covers vs the TA 455 timing covers, I read the thread on the other site, but at the end JW said that Bob was still welcome to post here. o No: Is Bob that thin skinned?

And why the flock don't they have their own site by now to post their personal and customer's builds? That would be some interesting reading.

That other Buick site was kinda dead so I didn't bother joining it, can't even remember the name of it. LOL

That Shafiroff guy looks like they do a lot of Chebby and a few Furd stuff. To bad that guy from v8 called eagle, they might have came out with a sbb 350 forged crank if that guy kept his pie hole shut. :eek2: :rant:




Derek

 

Here is their site:

http://www.finishlinemotorsports.com

I called and talked to Eagle and they did not have the crank on record in the R&D department files and wanted to charge me $2500 in fees to develop the crank from scratch and $3000 for the crank so I left it at that. I did however post this on the forum and that was my mistake because one of the members of the forum raised hell with them and caused drama with both the shop and Eagle and that's when the thread was pulled and all the issues began.. I was polite with them and no issues but it was the second guy was rude and threatening to Eagle.

 

Whoever that guy was may of cost the Buick community a sbb 350 forged crank from Eagle! ou: Although it would be an import it still would of been stronger than the factory cast crank and made in the same hut as the sbc Eagle cranks. If I thought there was any interest I would do a run of import billet cranks that would also be stronger than a factory crank. I think there would be a 10 crank minimum for IIRC $1,500 per crank, but don't think there's enough interest so I never mentioned it.

Why isn't Anthony's car at the bottom of the Finishline website?!!! A bunch of BBB cars, where's the sbb car? It is in the picture section pictured at the strip but no ETs posted with it like ALL the other BBB cars have there!!! :af: Is it that Anthony's car is that much faster than the BBB cars is why they're not posting the ETs?!!!

I knew they had that website, but that's not the kind of website I was referring to.





Derek

 

All the best luck with the stroker project... Different ways to get to the end goal...

 

OK Sean, we can keep that white whale, a white whale.

Happy New Year!


:beer






Derek

 

I think an off the shelf forged crank would be perfect... Low cost and strong.

 

If the demand was there the around $100,000 tooling cost would be worth it, that would include the first 500 crank run finish machined IIRC. After that costs are greatly reduced because the tooling would be there. Unfortunately the demand just isn't there and would probably take 5 years to sell the 500 cranks from the first run!! More likely to get the 10 billet crank order, but still that's a stretch. ou:

I would have to ask Dave about the specifics, if it wasn't for Dave, Pontiac guys wouldn't have an aftermarket crank when they got them. He was the one that made the prints for them to use to make their tooling and the guy with the contact to get that done, but he didn't have the wallet to do it by himself at that time.(long story and I forgot a lot of the details so I'll leave it at that)







Derek

 

You wouldn't need to tool up at a six figure cost if you had a forged crank already on the market with a remotely close bore center.
After that, it's carrying the costs for the short production run and warehousing them while customers buy one at a time over a couple years.
It doesn't add up to a good ROI that way unless demand is created to sell out the run on the front end.
This is how so many other co's operate and after the Bulldog fiasco...might not ever happen again.

 

I agree it's wishful thinking get we would ever get a forged crank... For most people the stocker is fine, and for the few crazies there is the billet option from King now.

 

Looked into the "close" option and the sbf is a 4.38", not close enough. Nor is anything else!

There would still be royalty fees to who owns the dies as well, like TA has to pay for the BBM forgings they sell for the Tomahawk blocks that are ordered with a 3" main. A small price to pay for a small quantity though vs a billet crank.




Derek

 

If there was 10 "crazies" they could save $1,000 a piece! :Brow:







Derek

 

I brought that up from the mindset of entrepreneur experience.
I can guarantee that there are other ways to solve supposed obstacles.
What drives the inspiration to bring such things to the marketplace is more than love for an engine family.
It's better for the business to carve up a few at a time for a price only the serious will pay under the mindset of one piece flow or prototype machining than to collaborate and source a raw forging for such a low ROI.
I for one wouldn't invest a single phone call to only make a few thousand dollars, over months time, with risks involved over that time, and esp. without having a cash payment before final inspection.

 

Having BTDT myself, let me assure you. Unless it is a custom piece paid for in advance with no expectation of a repeat (read: Very Expensive) there must be adequate volume to support the part and pay for the development costs. It's a curve, running from the above example all the way down to mass production where the development costs amortize out to pennies per part. Anywhere on that curve it is possible, but in the low volume area you will NEVER get a good cost that is generally regarded as affordable. Just the way it is. TA heads are a good example of a manufacturer finding a spot on the curve where enough die-hard enthusiasts will buy the product to reasonably expect eventual payoff. But even for them it is a pretty fair sized gamble.

Jim