They need to do a "Daily Driver Engine Masters" [RANT MODE: ON] I still think that if they REALLY wanted to see who's an "Engine Master", the engines should have to run on 87 octane, through a full 2.5" max exhaust system (tailpipe included), and have a max dollar amount / "sell for" clause, something like $5-$8K. And they should have to actually put the engine in a car and drive it to the site!!! :Smarty: That should weed out the ringers and the "unobtainium" parts guys...and we'd see who can REALLY find the power! :Brow: I just want to see what's REALLY possible for us "regular gearhead slobs" with wives, kids, etc...sure, I'd love to be able to spend $10K on just the engine, but LIFE keeps me (and prob'ly 95% of the rest of you...) from writing that particular check, which means the whole "Engine Masters" challenge is (so far) a lofty academic exercise that doesn't mean a whole lot to me... :af: (although I'm still pulling for the AMC guy and his good-looking engine! (scroll down a bit) [RANT MODE: OFF]
As a matter of fact, the competition is going on as we speak. It started Monday and runs through Thursday. The top 2 entries from each of the 3 dynos will run off on Friday for the championship. Here is what I've heard so far: Standings as of 10:30am, Oct 5th with thier respected scores in the following order as it appears below. BES (Ford) Dyno 1 Sonny Leonard (Chevrolet) Dyno 1 BTR (Oldsmobile) Dyno 2 Dale Eike (Pontiac) Dyno 3 The BTR Olds on Dyno #2 posted a score of 975.4 with peak numbers of 640 Hp and 568 ft-lbs. They are all saying that the supplied fuel isn't that great and the dynos read on the conservative side. The BTR guys said they made 677 HP on their home dyno. And yes, that is the REAL Sonny Leonard and Dale Eicke of NHRA/IHRA Pro Stock fame. Pretty cool that these "privateers" can hang with the big guns. All of these guys have some SERIOUS money in these motors. Have fun.
Yeah--the more of these EMCs they run the more competitive it will become---look at it now--NASCAR people competing! So the costs to compete get more and more ridiculous. The 403 Olds (that did not make it to the competition) had a full main girdle, Bulldog heads, Edelbrock Victor intake, etc, etc. The problem for the Buick sblocks is you are going to look at the competition and what aftermarket parts they had available to them and then say "why should I dump that kind of money into a motor when I know I have no shot at making a competitive showing". This will take a truly altruistic individual that has lots of spare cash to blow....because the chances of making a good showing against other brands that have a wider range of aftermarket choices are pretty slim. Also--at this level of competition the motors start to lose any "identity" they ever had....aftermarket heads start to flow the same no matter what brand they are on because they are all developed to allow massive porting, intakes--same thing, etc. It just becomes a big "air pump" competition....just insert brand name on valve cover "here". Patton
EXACTLY!!! Which is why I want to see an actual LOW-BUCK STREET engine competition. I think it'd be a LOT more of a challenge. If I wanted to see what's possible with huge resources, I'd watch Formula 1, or modern NASCAR. (which, by the way, oughta be renamed NACTBNRALTAYED - National Association of Cars That Bear No Resemblence At All To Anything You'll Ever Drive) :rant:
Yeah--I guess this is the nature of the beast--they probably started this competition to show combos that were "streetable" or buildable by the rest of us....yeah, RIGHT! These motors are now built specifically for the competition. Hopefully, with the success of this competition they will introduce another class with much stricter rules governing parts and costs oriented towards true affordable motors that you or I would consider building. Then again maybe not----if they limit the ability to use all this fancy aftermarket stuff then they get no support (ie advertising $$$$) from the parts vendors/manufacturers. This stuff is enjoyable to read about---you should see the threads over on ROP (one runs for 9 pages so far on the BTR Olds entry although not any detail on the actual motor build/techniques yet). The Olds motor looks like it will be the winner in terms of suprising people this year. The 403 that didn't make it would have been interesting also because of the cheap supply of these motors and large bore. Once again, heads and intake availability made a huge difference for this brand this year. The competition you suggest should be limited to an Edelbrock Air Gap type manifold or "smaller"----these Victor single plane deals are hardly streetable. BTW--I am also an Olds nut so that accounts for my interest in following the competition this year. Patton
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/challenge/2004/rules/ Everyone needs to read through the rules for the competition before they start talking it down. There's a rule for just about everything that goes in the engine, full exhaust, all parts must be commercially available, 92 octane gas only, they even have a gas line restriction. Then take a look at the 50 entries. More than a few of them are "I built it in my garage after work" kind of guys. http://popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/challenge/2004/0410phr_nifty/
for true streetability they should require them to run X number of hrs with varying loading. and heat cycles (allow to cool to room temp then run and repeat) like a true street car would and survive. small leaks would be allowed for repair. (exhaust, intake) and then re dyno them to see if power numbers change if they can even make it that far. nate
I'm glad to see BTR in the big show.Bill is a very nice guy and very smart.He helped us alot this year with our nsca limited street mustang even though he is in our class.
What its Worth.... The best thing about these competitions is the R&D that comes out of it. Whether they are practicle for the avarage "Joe" is not important if you ask me. This the elite of the elite, not a bolt-on parts street engine. Competition like these brings out Parts Companys to make new and better parts since it has such a spot light on it. So the new parts that come out of it and the research and learning is what is beneficial to the avaerage guy building a hot street motor on pump gas. So for Buick not to be there, win or loose, is bad for everyone. Its hard to get parts for something that doesn't compete with the rest of the world. I think if someone put the effort into a 350 like the other brands, we would see some impressive numbers and maybe a spark to some company that we need better parts. Jim got 546hp out of that 350 without really pushing the envolope with compression and cam specs. I think that you might be able to hit or get close to 600hp with the right port work, cam, compression, and intake work. THe world may never know. It takes money one way or another. I don't see Buick guys taking up a money collection like mopar guys or other people to make it happen??!! Maybe we need to get serious and put are money where are mouth is to make things happen. I don't think it would be a problem for one of the reputable builders to put something together with some interest and support. :Smarty: Anyone????
Not trying to throw cold water on the idea, as it would be cool to see a Small Block Buick in there, but 600 hp would not be even close to being competitive in the EMC--However, from a marketing standpoint the entrant would surely attract some attention. "First mover advantage" to use a worn out phrase from the tech bubble. Olds also got an advantage by being able to use BB heads on a small block---same bolt pattern. Is the Buick 350 set up that way? What is the bore size and/or possibilities for a stroker type crank.....I would think you would need to push the cubic inches up to the limit to at least get some extra hp from the extra volume. Patton
I'd like to point out that it's not "highest hp/torque wins". It's who has the nicest powerband along with a few other things.
I'm not trashing the whole idea, I'd just like to see something more "real world", with more REAL street parameters. Like, when was the last time you revved your street engine up to 6,500? I do like the averages under the curve, I'd just like to see the curve brought back down into where 99% of street performance engines run, like 1,500-5,500 rpm. With OEM blocks, cranks, and probably heads. And just to make it fun, on 87 octane, and you have to DRIVE it to the competition! My complaint (and it isn't a big one, really...) is that the engines are starting to look more and more like "parts collections" based on OEM engines. Makes me think of all those "parts collection" street rods out there..."It's a '39 Dodge - with a 460 Ford and a THM400 with a Caddilac rear end"... :boring: That's not a competition to see which OEM engine makes more power, or who's the smarter builder. It turns into a competition about "who can throw the most money at their custom parts"... Now, there are the "garage-built" engines in the competition, but where will they finish? How many have been competitive? What does it mean? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, I just see it turning into a contest of high-dollar race engines acting like street engines for a weekend.
Rick, I doubt seriously that hardly anybody that keeps talking up the 350 Buick has close to what you or a half-dozen other people have invested in the 455 Buick. Like you said, some people need to start putting up the bucks instead of complaining because somebody else isn't. I can think of 2 serious 350 projects. Zane's car, and TubbeD's car.
