Yeah Dave.....I ran 11.40s-11.60s for literally thousands of runs plus street driving with stock but new 1970 alum rockers. (picked up .10 over stamped steel BTW) Bruce BQUICK JAGUICK
Go back and read my first postings in this thread, and you'll see that I am the above guy: building a budget 455 that won't see 6500rpm and trying to keep wife/kids/mortgage happy. If the Edelbrock heads are better than DIY-ported irons, but not quite as good as TA aluminums, then you've found an opening in the market - good for you, thumbs up! But priced at $1800 plus rockers, you've overpriced them for the market segment you're going for - bad for you, thumbs down! Again, I can get a set of irons with bronze guides, hardened seats, DIY bowl porting and chamber polishing for around $1100-1200, or if I'm lucky I can score the same thing but ported by a pro (with flow #'s) here for the same money. Why should I spend another 700+ hard-earned dollars on heads for performance I'm not convinced I need? If they were about $1500 complete and I could use my existing rockers, I would consider them. But at $1800 + I gotta go to a different (and not as good, imho) rocker? Nope, not gonna do it. And I don't think I'm being a cheapskate, either - note that I can get assembled Edelbrock heads for an AMC for $1500 (Summit), and use my existing rockers. Just my budgeted two cents...
Right now you could get a set of TA Stage 1 or 2, SE or TE for $1899 and upgrade porting work later if you want to go REAL fast. There's nothing saying you can't use a good set of used rocker shafts either. The only way I can see the Chevy rocker system being an advantage is of they use BB Rockers so that 1.7 ratio or higher is a bolt-on.
Lets not discourage any Buick parts vendors. I understand we fear for TA's volume and continued success but that has more to do with us as customers. We must step up and buying product when we rebuild. If most performance street buicks received aluminum heads from one vendor or another the market would expand. We have needs that are not being met. An RPM air gap dual plane would be an instant hit. The first vendor to offer one will capture a nice intake market. I have several TA intakes and a few B4Bs. If I could get them to mate and have little high rise babies... Hummm
This is so true!! I agree 100% with the last few posts. E-heads at $1800 + rockers to fill a void between stockers and T-A's is like throwing salt on an open wound, esp now that T-A's are on sale. I have already ponied-up for T-A's rockers years ago, and now I want aluminum heads. If E's were available NOW, it would still be a no-brainer whose to buy, sale or no sale, IMO. At the risk of being presumptuous, I'll ask Edelbrock if they've perused these forums to see where the holes are in V8 Buick performance parts coverage? Afterall, with over 10,000 members, one could clearly see that the consensus of a Buick board this size would be a good place to start to understand the needs of the V8 Buick community. Would another 455 cylinder head fill a small void - perhaps. Is it arrogant for a niche-based group of car enthusiasts to ask a major aftermarket performance parts company to listen to what they want - maybe in someone's eyes. But it is what it is. Thank goodness for T-A. Subtract out everything they have brought to market over the years and look where we would be without them. I look forward to seeing more boxes from T-A showing up soon on my doorstep. :3gears:
For the last several years, TA Performance has done a year end blowout sale. Between December and February is our slower time of the year and this helps to keep everyone busy. In almost every sale that we do (through out the entire year) there is some type of a head discount. No matter how hard Mike tries, he can not make the math work to lower the heads in general. Right now the $550 that is saved is the cost of the valve job and assembly, you are getting the v/job for free. The only way Mike can fudge this is to look at our technicians wage and not the shop rate. I also will take the opportunity to mention that our valve jobs are done to NASCAR standards and are well above average in the entire industry. The other factor is that in Arizona, we have to pay tax at the end of the year on EVERYTHING that is sitting on the shelf. When we have to contract production runs that are large enough to last us for more than one year, we can be paying taxes on the same part for multiple years! Ever wonder why Jegs and Summit are in Ohio and have satelite stores in Nevada? NO TAXES, that is also why they are so less expensive on certain items. Anyone that has been to our shop and seen our inventory bulging at the seams can just imagine what the taxes are on that kind of inventory! Of course the competition pulls a trigger on some of this, but we do it for genuine reasons. We have to sell what we have made so that we can do another production run which alows us to improve the product if needed. When we do the deeper sales we just have to sacrifice the $ that could get re-invested (block, stage 6 heads, 350 heads, nailhead timing cover etc.) We also, without a doubt believe that our product is better than almost anything in the entire performance market, we want the Buicks to be WELL represented. Things like this are why the Buicks are doing so well today. Fit, finish and excellent performance are what get's the brand Xers to respect a Buick. If this type of momentum was going 15 or 20 years ago all you guys that just put 750 hp combos together would be bragging about your 1000 hp combos. Mike Tomaszewski handed me an intersting piece of TA Performance history, today. It was a questionaire from the 1985 GS Nationals that TA gave out, I will be posting it on our website in the near future. Here is a teaser: 1. Would you be interested in an aluminum version of the Buick Stage 2 Heads? 2. Would you be interested in a single plane intake for the Buick 455? 3. Estimated price for Stage 2 aluminum BARE castings is $1600 (pair)***. *** currently these heads BARE are $1395 (pair). So we are trying to keep the prices competitive. Plus the current heads are light years ahead of the early ones. I personally would like to thank all of the people who support TA with their purchases and positive words when situations like this arise. To those who think competition is better, on paper it is but in a self sufficient market like this every dollar counts and needs to be funnelled towards a common goal... survival. Dave TA Performance
Choose your words carefully Dave. You keep speaking like that and you'll start a commotion on the Small Block forum. :TU:
Im a perfect example then. When the TA heads were on sale in 2004, my motor was performing well and my heavily worked Iron Stg1's were thought to be good too. When the motor came apart and the heads were inspected last winter, I found out this wasn't the case so I ordered TA Stg1 SE's at full price and had some work done to them too.... ....now they're on sale. ou: o No: My loss but that was my timing issues, not TA's. I feel I got what I paid for - an excellent set of heads that outflow my worked Irons ....out of the box. It was my choice to then step it up a bit with some porting work. I have NO PROBLEM with a vendor bringing new products to market for us. I APPLAUD them in fact - but I have to question the decision of WHAT product is being developed and brought to us when something that ALREADY is being sourced well is duplicated ( or in this case triplicated if you count BullDog) - while some things that have NO SOURCE AND A BIG POTENTIAL MARKET SEGMENT ARE IGNORED. Ohhh....and instead of changing our Rocker design - WHY NOT GIVE US ALL AN OPTION ON ANOTHER SOURCE FOR ROLLER ROCKERS ?!?!!?!?!!????!!!??? If they had designed their heads to use our existing system - and Develop Roller rockers to sell WITH THEM, Pirce them lower then the T&D's, then they could have also sold those Roller rockers to ALOT of other people.
How much money do we save w/ T/A heads on sale? Dave, it says in the ad that we can save $400.00 on your heads during the sale. How did you come up with $550.00? I'm tired of waiting more than a year for the Bulldogs on which I put a sizeable deposit, and will probably go with your TA Street Eliminator. But, how much is the discount? Regards, Craig Stangohr Aiken, SC
Craig, Regular price on ready to run Stage1 SE Aluminum heads has run about 2450.00. The current sale for BPG members only, is 1899.00. That's a good price.
Dave:: Believe me when I hear your pain in the business world, and being in a nitch market isn't helping either. I don't even think that Mike is out of line on his pricing of the heads. If Edelbrock gets enough response to the rocker arm issue I'm sure they would reconsider making it accept the shaft rockers. Believe me when I say I didn't even know about the use of the Chevy rockers in the design, and if I were asked I would have advised them not to do it but I can understand why it was done. It is no benefit to Edelbrock to make a product no one is going to purchase, and they made a decision based upon their expreience in the industry and not internet experts, you have to admit there are alot of goofs who act like experts in the forums. Is there good info on the net, yes and no so you use the best knowledge available. It just flamed me when people bad mouth something they never have even seen just on rumor. I can't tell you how many times I have heard a pieces of gosip told by a "person on the inside" and knew that it was straight bull cookies, all the while others ran with the info as if it were being passed down from the Gods. Just give Edelbrock a call and voice your concerns and see if you get a response. For the record, I would personally use the stock rockers too on a mild engine but then for a mild engine would work great with stock iron heads that have been worked over.
Does the chevy style stud mount accept the jessel roller rocker setup without additional machining?I know thats an expensive way to go,more so than a TD roller assembly,but for the all out racer if they work without more machining it would be cheaper than doing the buick head to accept jessel.This is all pedicated on the premise that the E heads will flow as well as or better than an AL stage 1 or 2.
When I reviewed my post this morning with Mike and we were talking about the rocker issue we both realized that it has been a long time since we had to re-build a set. (Hopefully) I am safe in saying that if you do invest in the TA** roller rockers you are getting years of use from them. I know they are a Nascar standard and we are aware of multiple people that have over 100,000 miles on them. ** I need to re-iterate that the TA Roller Rockers are different than the ones you can buy from T&D direct as well as any natural color or blue ones. If they are red & they have the TA logo on the top, you are in possession of the very best rocker for the Buicks. If you have the others you have the second best. Only they TA rocker is wider, Only the TA rocker has a reinforcement between the bearings, Only the TA clears most common springs and Only the TA can be cleared further for Roller Cam springs!!! The reinforcement puts additional material at the center line so that additional material can be removed on the underside for large springs, this reinforcement also secures the bearings from being able to move laterally on the shaft and out of the rocker. There is a difference, and I just want to remind people the added value of the TA rockers. Here is additional info on the rockers and other items that off the shelf is just not good enough and TA offers a proprietary version http://www.taperformance.com/facts,_archive.htm When I talk about re-investment I just realize how much stuff is needed and how long our to do list is. Then I think how fast all this stuff would come about if there was more concentrated volume. I think the 350 definately needs some heads, they are harder to bring to life than the block is, unfortunately. As you may have noticed in my signature I like the LS1/LS6 & LS2 engines, their whole deal is cylinder heads and camshaft (which = rpm & HP) and they make great power. A 300 cfm set of heads for a Buick 350 would be a world of difference! Ranger, the ad includes V6 heads as well so there is less savings with them. On the Big Block heads the savings is actually $551. Dave
2600.00 for a complete assembled pair ? i'd spend 2600.00 on a set of TA heads first. At least i know Mike will keep bringing new much needed parts to the market place. and i would also have the confidence that they are assembled with top quality parts.
Not to change the subject here... What would an Edelbrock RPM (air gap?) dual plane really do for us over a good B4B? At what point is going to a single plane more practical. I would assume that any new dual plane would still fit under the hood, not require a hood scoop, or be limited by the original carb pad location for the GS air intake. Any other takes on this one? Has anyone bought a new B4B to compare it to the older B4B's? If so, are they pretty much the same animal. Some have said, NO....
I'm having Aluminum heads installed this week. I went with the Performer. Greg gessler is going to port match it and do a little work in the plenum for me. I don't think there is that much difference between the B4B and Performer. I'd rather have the air cleaner. I like the way it looks. Single plane is good for 5000 RPM and up
