ALthough the flow numbers may not be 'significantly' better than a stock set, I think if someone could produce a set of aluminum heads that flow very close out of the box to a set that has been fully ported/polished, and adds some items such as larger vakves, slightly smaller chambers to help boost compression slightly, sets them up with good beehive style springs, 11/32" valves etc... and weigh less, then the cost of aluminum heads may be cheaper than sending your set out and having all these mods made. By NO means do I mean to disrespect the good folks who are doing the porting and such for our heads, but if the heads could be cast with improved flow, then there would be little need to send out for time consuming and costly porting. If you still wanted to have some porting done, aluminum is much easier/quicker to work with and this would reduce further machining cost. Buick and AMC heads from Edelbrock are less than $2000 pair compete with valves, springs, retainers, etc... poritng our heads alone is close to this or more depending on what level you are going to, but if you could shed 35 pounds or so each, then you could pick up some HP and lose weight for about the same cost as having the factory set done. I think if you look at it that way, the cost is not so unreasonable.
Sorry, but I have to get in on this & give my .02 cents worth for what it may be worth. One of the things that makes HP is heat. Unfortunately, aluminum dissipates heat very well. Evidence, aluminum radiators. Now from my understanding to get the same HP output with aluminum heads over cast iron 2 things must happen. 1st, they must flow at least 20-30 percent better than their cast counterparts. This would be possible with better port design. 2nd, you need to run 1 1/2-2 points higher in compression. Getting 12-1 compression from a NailHead is difficult to achieve without doing some sort of stroking, custom pistons, etc. & still keep the desired squish area no less than .030" or so, give or take. Then you have the problem of piston contact with the head in various places. So much for the squish area. Next, where can you get or who will make the nec. head gaskets to keep the different thermal characteristics of aluminum & cast iron sealed up??? Buick tried it when they made the 21 experimental aluminum heads. As I remember the casting numbers on the aluminum heads was from a 1959/401 casting. They LOST Hp. To have ANY of those aluminum heads would, IMHO, only be bragging rights saying you have a set. To get a set up to par they would cost you anywhere from 2.5K-4.5K to get at least operational. Now, Buick also made "D" port or "Big" port heads in late 60/61. They made 47 of these. Supposedly they made an additional 15HP over the standard head. On the flow bench they flow less than stock by about 10% on the exhaust side. The intake side is as your normal head. For the past 50+ years everyone thought it was because of the exhaust runner lengths & curves, but the problem area was the INTAKE side on a normally aspirated application which is what the majority of us are using. Who on this board would be willing to spend 2K or more for aluminum heads. When it finally boils down to it we may be talking about a dozen or so & this is probably in the WORLD!!!! What would it actually cost for molds, R&D, set-up costs & the myriad of other costs associated with taking on an endeavorer such as this???? You will find it cost prohibitive as everyone else who has the capabilities to do so. Bottom line, NO $$$$$$$$$$. But, we all need to dream & have goals, as this is one of the things that can make life, in general, keep us going. So much for my .02 cents worth.
Well, that takes the wind out of my sails. I guess Tom is right though, if the heads were available for around 2k how many of us would actually cough up the dough to buy them? Probably not enough to pay for a run of them. I am sure I can lose the 50-60lbs elsewhere in my car anyhow. Damn logical thinking, kills all my dreams...
Greg Gessler gets .3-.4 with port work and stock size valves. What could he do with the 1.94" intake and port work, unshroud the 1.94" of course. .5? THAT IS significant easily and with a 50# reduction in weight for the cost of whatever Edelbrock gets for it's odddest aluminum head would be a steal of a deal! If the existing head can be ported to flow as much as a standard 455" then with a bit better casting should certainly allow for another .2-.3 quite possibly. I would of course keep the same style/shape so it would be recognized as a nailhead. How about the d-shaped exhaust runner, has that ever been explored, besides what buick did with the few sets back in the day? If a dirt runner made a hemi head from a cast iron head back in the late 60's, early 70's what could be done with todays technology? URRgHH! Frustrated a bit!
Yeah, that is why you put the time , money and effort into the rockers your name is synonymous with. I am no expert on castings and I guess if there were original casting molds to start with the job would be 50% easier. EELCO is making that 2 x 4 but still no tests but did anyone do a poll about what the Nailhead community wanted, another dual quad or a modern single 4-bbl. aka the Edelbrock RPM plus? I'm surprised that Bulldog found that many guys racing 455's that a complete block could be done from scratch? They aren't cheap and how many could there be compared to street nails? Maybe we will always be the red headed step child but we can go down fighting. Maybe a millionaire will start collecting nails and see the need for making the motor equal with some of the more popular but boring competetion like the 396 Chevy let alone the 348!
Actually getting enough compression out of the heads would not be an issue. How many guys are actually running a 10:1 static ratio now, or think they are? Did they have the head surfaced? So they know what the chamber volume is? Calculated the diference between the stock .015" steel shim gasket and the more likely used composition gasket(.03x"). Had the deck height measured from the crank to the top of the block surface? Then has custom pistons made with the dome volume that they ncalculated to create the desired 10:1 or whatever compression they wanted? Some could be surprised to find they actually are a few tenths lower than they thought they had! Probably a 9.6:1 instead of that 10:1 in their sig. Besides if the rockers with a 1.9 ratio will work without PTV even on a stock cam there should be plenty of room to have pistons manufactured to attain the compression desired. Even a 1.7 rocker ratio would allow enough room for the compression to make up for the heat dissipation of the aluminum heads.Then the "squish" area, aka "quench" area does not exist on the hemi shaped combusion chamber so not an issue again. What should be done is have the guys here in the know create a questionaire for the knowledgeable machinists for what should/could be done reasonably to the existing castings to make an aluminum head helpful, retain the same physical characteristics, at least so it would bolt to the stock block, and make the changes worth the expense. Let's not try to recreate the egg but suggest ideas that would fit into the basic parameters of the existing head to keep the nailhead "tradition" intact while having some subtle mods made to possibly create 50hp+ more with the correct cam. The cam should be just for the added compression and any aluminum characteristics that may be dictated. Maybe larger lifter bores for a quicker ramp cam? As much corection to the intake port as possible given "our" parameters to the machinists. Posible rocker change? If the changes are not exotic and within what a casting company like Bulldog could create without a great deal of expensive research time then maybe, just maybe, with the support of a company like TA or another to spend a bit along with some commitments from club members with corresponding deposits for "X" amount of sets then maybe there is a slim chance, if we are diligent, and present the majority of the work already done, such as perhaps blueprint drawings if we have a member accomplished in that field? My "dream" as Tom aptly described it! Keeping the changes realistic and doing as much of the reseach as we can given whatever knowledge and skills we may possess could make this a reality, couldn't it? HOW ABOUT ON PAPER ANYWAYS FOR A START?!
Yeah! With adapter plates would any other make intake possibly fit this motor? I know Kenne-bell had Mopar intakes with adapter plates on the 455's. They claimed the old Edelbrock B4BJ was the best, hard to believe but perhaps the adapter plates messed up the flow however it is still a possibility. Heck, even a small block Chevy(is that considered against the rules to say that!) intake would flow more than the cast iron anchor that came on the nail. Cheap Just dreaming, wishful thinking! It seems the nailhead is one of the most storied engines of the V8 era yet one of the most neglected also. No offense to the 350 guys but the nail deserves a well flowing intake more than that motor IMHO!
To All: With the computer software available now days, these heads could be designed and tested before they were ever made. Then if adjustments needed to be made, they could be. This would happen before they ever cut/machined one piece of Aluminum. This process is now not near the effort that was put into them when they were first built. I'd darn sure buy a set even for $2500 if they flowed decently and were complete. It's really a shame this engine plat form is not better supplied with parts. I'm going to keep trying. They all need to be reminded that there is a constant amount of people out here, and not just a blip on the screen. Ty
Agreed. Perhaps we as a group need to take a poll. Are we really a powerful(willing to spend/commit) enough group to lobby for these parts? $2500. for a complete set of aluminum heads that have the flow characteristics needed to bring the nailhead to respectability? We have fallen behing Ramblers because they have enough of a base to get what they want and that is sad, beaten by a Rambler! It would seem with the fairly short stroke that the nail could be making some HP with higher revs. If not that then a cam with a power range that will compliment the nails present characteristics.
Edelbrock is not interested at this time. I've called; We got Connections They just dont want to by the sounds of it nor see any signifigant gains Mike
I think everyone gave up on Edelbrock a long time ago as they are interested in thousand piece runs and not likely to be interested in the small nitch market the nails would have but with enough coverage, possible magazine article the nail could be resurected to regain some of it's past glory. Ty had a good thread and if enough would show interest it couls be possible and the trick would be to use as many existing parts as possible to keep the cost to the basic casting itself. maybe.
Many of us tried to get Edelbrock to re-cast the B262 intake manifold. I'm sure they still have the nec. molds & or??? They have NO INTEREST AT ALL!!!!! We lobbied for months all at no response.
Again, it's all about numbers and not a personal vendetta against the mailhead though it may seem so with some of what Edelbrock does do and doesn't do. Has anyone actually dyno tested the B262 against the stock 2 x 4 intake or even track timed the difference as searches don't turn up anything concrete and the "seat of the pants" method is the kind of mentality that leaves one thinking the nailhead guys aren't serious. No real numbers or something like "I remember the friend of a friend who my cousin met in jail that said...". Isn't the EELCO supposed to be at least a copy of the Edelbrock or even an improvement of it? Still great for looks but not a replacement for an Edelbrock RPM intake manifold for a single 4bbl. I would exhaust the adapter and intakes available first, intakes like the RPM mentioned with the best modern designs. Perhaps a good print of the ports and distances posted would be a starting point and then start looking at whatever is out there that is closest and have the adapter plates made. Could be nothing close but a place to start as it seems if we don't do it ourselves it will not get done as you know from the time that went into the rockers. SBC seems like the place to start with the nails narrow design, yes? Adapters are a lot easier to make than an entire intake and Edelbrock would seem likely to at least offer the mold for sale if they indeed have it still available. They certainly could not be afraid of the competetion or they would cast the intake themselves!
Obviously they are not interested in what they perceive as a few fringe guys looking for a part that is no longer available that has no real potential for them to make what it is worth. How about we exhaust the adapter and an intake such as the Edelbrock RPM intakes available ourselves first? Get the dimensions of the nail's intake gasket posted and find the intakes that are available and see what, if any, is close enough to try anyways? Between all of us we must have or know someone with many of the heads/intakes that are currently available? I don't know of any othr way to see what is close at all. Just a thought.
To All: There are some private smaller companies that have the capacity to design and cast, or have cast the heads or intake. I've got a lead in several more. As soon as I find out, I'll post what I found. I know there are a lot of people that feel I'm probably wasting my/our time, But I tend to be a Hard Headed SOB when it comes to these things. Modern technology has changed so much that the idea that this Can't be done somehow escapes me. There are companies who with the proper programs will cut ANY piece you want on a 5 or 7 axis machine, then mail you the parts. Then internet is a wonderful thing and I'm constantly surprised what is out there with a bit of searching. I'll keep on trying, and I'll post again soon. Thanks, Ty
