And so we have it.. some folks opinion is that it is a mortal sin to touch the rivets of a VIN tag, others considering it just to be a model identifier and ID tag for an individual car, that can and was placed on any random body shell that came down the line, when the paperwork instructed the line worker to do so. Now, I need to be clear here... In NO way am I saying that any type of re-body, whether it involves the body tub, or just the bolt on parts, should ever be presented as a vehicle with "Born on Sheetmetal". Yes you read that right.. in my book, you replace a door, decklid, hood, whatever.. your into a "rebody" situation.. recall my definition of the two classes of used muscle cars I believe exist. Which is, in short.... those perfect cars, that have only had wear parts replaced, and no one has had their greasy hands on... and then everything else. Brian, you did not answer the question that I posed, so I will take it that you cannot justify your opinion on a logical basis.. You known as well as I do that every body shell was exactly the same at one time, before Ernie at the factory, adjusted the cigar in his mouth, and taped some paperwork to it... Thats ok, your entitled to your opinion, you don't need to justify it to me, or anyone else, I was just curious if you could. If I was missing something here.. Just make sure you identify it as your opinion, not some accepted truth.. trust me, there are plenty, if not the majority, of guys out there who think just like I do, and believe that while your completely entitled to your opinion, there is really no logical base to it. Many reading this, who would not touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, for fear of bringing their own car under suspicion by the "tag police". I don't blame them.. While your against "levitating" the vin tag off a car, you condone "levitating" every other part off it that does not have a VIN number on it (4 sub-assemblies are VIN identified) and replacing NON VIN ID'ed parts with used, reproduction, or whatever the source parts, and yet still considering/presenting that as the model it appears to be, and not some Frankenstein. When it may have quarters, and inner fenders and a core support that started out life in China as some recycled soup cans, and bolt on parts from Skylarks far and wide... Interesting... I simply was curious as to the source of such an opinion, vs the practical, common sense points I laid out in this thread. I also am concerned about folks putting themselves in judgment over someone else's pride and joy. NO ONE here was anointed as the arbitrator of what is, or is not a correct restoration process. And with that.. happy restoring folks. Do what you think is right... after all it's your car, your money, and your opinion that matters. JW P.S. It occurs to me that some may think that personally, I am a kinda "free for all" guy when it comes to this issue. Not really.. when I was in the business, I had a simple guideline for a restoration candidate. You must have the 4 sub assemblies that are VIN identified, and they must be in reasonably restorable/buildable condition. Those four are.. Engine Transmission Body Shell Frame Cars with any of those 4 sub-assemblies, that are not present, or not reasonably repairable, were not considered candidates for frame off, concours restorations. If that descibes your car, my advice is build yourself a hot rod, and have some fun, and use whatever parts you want to.
Generally agree. To take the shell thing farther, every piece of that shell exc. the two tags has a part # & could be ordered &/or was randomly pulled from bins, etc. to assemble that shell originally. Frame also has a VIN. Lots of concours NOM/trans cars. Personally, I wouldn't disqualify that from receiving a concours resto if someone wants to put the $ into it, but that's just my opinion. To me, the "investment" part is the least consequential aspect of consideration. There are lots of reasons guys would go into this knowing they'll be upside down in the end. Still probably a better investment than golf, bars, drugs, or hookers, etc. or even racing for that matter unless you're making serious business deals doing any of those activities.
Thanks Dan... Dang.. I knew there were 4 qualifiers not three.. but for the life of me I could not come up with the 4th.. yes the frame.. Been about 15 years since I had to advise any customer on that decision, probably why I forgot the 4th one, although I am well aware of the frame Vin, and mentioned it earlier in this thread.. getting old I guess.. I will go change that.. so it reads correctly. JW
Saturday got me thinking how I needed to go right to the heart of the matter and contact the great state of Kentucky for an appointed opinion. So I called the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet in Frankfort today. They did take my S.S. number and then read my name back to me. Anyway, after period on hold, I eventually talked with a helpful specialist named Taylor. I explained "our" question to her. (I used 2 1970 Buicks, same model, body on frame construction, one has a better body than the other, both having a 13 digit VIN) She knew what I was getting at before I even finished explaining and walked me through the process. To do this legally in KY, you must start with a form TC 96-339 "Application for Vehicle Identification Removal" and sprinkle in documentation proving you own vehicles A & B. Vehicle A, for the sake of the hypothetical example, would be a rotted out 1970 GSX Vehicle B, for the sake of the hypothetical example, would be a perfect 1970 Skylark In section 3 there is a line "I certify that the motor, transmission, and frame will be used from vehicle with VIN _____________" That could get a little dicey if the rotted out GSX has frame numbers that can't be read and / or is no longer numbers matching. Assuming the VIN tag on A is good, it can be attached to vehicle B's body. That's pretty sweet as the car will still appear normal when you look in the windshield. After all the work is completed in the rebuild process, an inspection will be done. In a reply a few days ago, someone mentioned a running and driving GSX having a tree land on it - what then? So that one differs in that it would have the legal step of Salvage once the insurance company pays out. Then, it too would enter this same rebuild process after John Q. Public buys it at auction. Please note the last line in the illustration. You would still have to do 339 just to repair the dash area but it wouldn't be a rebuild, and that makes perfect sense. I can't speak for other states, but this looks quite simple and straight forward as provided by Taylor through an email:
Me thinks the Commonwealth of Kentucky has their ducks in a row and know what they are doing. I personally would follow their lead.
Kentucky is an interesting commonwealth. It's the state where I got smoked by an SUV for the "crime" of strolling across a parking lot in 2010. Kentucky also requires drivers to carry a minimum P I P coverage for just such cases. Lots of good people live there too.
Nice work Brian and as is often the case, Federal and State Laws conflict. Often federal laws conflict ea. other but that's another story.
As of august of 2021 in my state a vin can not be removed with out proper authorization by DOT. Certain cars have to be retitled and have Hobbyist plates. Not a typical collector plate. I agree with Brian on this subject. I have no issues with people doing a tribute car. But keep the documents correct. Some people don’t have the knowledge to know every exact location and part to look at when getting into these rare high dollar cars. As the older generation dies off some of us younger guys only have what we have learned from the experiences and knowledge you guys have. Heck one day I would like to be able to buy a 69 vert stage 1 car. But I sure as heck hope we can all be on the same page as what is real to what is fake. This just adds the GREY between the lines.
