I"ve said for a long time that original sheetmetal should command a price premium no different than original drivetrains.
Sounds like what's referred to as a back-halving and we've seen it done by Mike, Jim, and a few others IIRC. To me, your example of what your friend did, and his reasoning behind it, was a perfect illustration of somebody considering the tags and the area around them to be "sacred ground". He's not alone. While there maybe some controversy from the standpoint of just how much sheet-metal is involved, more than likely your buddy preserved the stamped serial number often found on the firewall at the heater box. Ultimately, this kind of work is only going to be done by a very capable individual or shop and I would wager to nothing short of show quality results would likely ensue. One would hope the donor metal is of the same vintage as the cowl and there is something else still original to the car. I.E. owner, frame, engine, trans, rear-end, bolt on sheet-metal, etc. in order to somewhat justify things because you're looking at a lot of investment! Whether the VIN is on the door pillar or dash, that portion of the car was picked for a reason. It's the most likely to survive a crash or even elements. Years ago, I traded some labor for a GS455 convertible that had sat abandoned outside an Ohio body shop . The GS had been completely disassembled for years (read no top) yet, the VIN was still completely legible and in good condition!
This one can’t be mistaken for a real X because it’s a convertible but it can be mistaken as “real “, it is a rebody from back in 1982, it was totaled and re-bodied with a yellow Skylark, it was last seen in Raytown Missouri. Tag #134287 and in the Stage 1 registry.
Scary. Sounds like the kind of deal someone could get caught up in. The car should have a rebuilt title and an assigned VIN if the entire car body was completely replaced. At least the dog matches the car, even though the party that did the work screwed the pooch. How old's the picture, you never see those wheels anymore and I kind of like them!
This discussion needs to be framed in the terms it really should be.. it's about money... and pride... this statement is all you need to know.. "If you can't restore a car properly"... that's a statement dripping with elitism and condescension. There is no place in our hobby for that attitude. --------------------------------- Let's set that aside and consider an alternate viewpoint, based on facts, not feelings: Were I inspecting a GSX to purchase, and it has all the correct equipment, all the power-train numbers match the VIN, and has the right frame numbers for a GS 455 with every detail correct, but had a vintage and date code correct Skylark body tub/doors/decklid/bumpers and whatever else, I could actually care less. And neither should you. They were all the exact same parts at one point in time. I get no end to the amusement provided by those among us who put some mythical importance on a body shell with a tag on it. By their logic, if the driver door had a tag on it, then you could not replace the door. If the tires had vin numbers burned into them, you could not replace the tires.. The laws against tampering with VIN plates were put there to fight car theft, not to prevent you from restoring your car.. PERIOD Changing a VIN plate from one completed car to another, to hide the actual ID of the car, or to misrepresent that car as a more desirable model, is Auto Theft/Fraud... taking the VIN off a body tub, and putting it on another part that is exactly the same, in the midst of a full frame off job, and then re-assembling the entire car AND disclosing what parts were replaced when selling the vehicle, is restoration. SIMPLE AS THAT. It is no different than clipping a car, which I have personally done. That customer decided that he would invest the money in his way too rotted out GSX by just having us put the back half of a rust free body on.. I had no issue with that, it's his choice as to how to spend his money. Had he wanted me to replace the entire tub and change the tag, then I would have had no issue with that either.. since I am not trying to convince anyone that the car they are looking is anything other than a GSX. Sure, we have changed some parts, with perfectly preserved original factory built replacements, and the collection of parts that constitutes the vehicle is EXACTLY the same as when it left the factory. That is light years away from taking a complete Skylark of the same vintage, throwing some parts on it, and a set of GSX tags, and calling it a real GSX. Those cars are easy to spot, as those folks who do that, usually don't have the knowledge, or money to pull it off. They are just trying to make a quick buck. I don't personally even care if parts replacement is disclosed or not.. I can spot a perfect, non rusted/damage body shell, built by Fisher Body when most of us were toddlers, as well as anyone. And it would not deter me from buying the car. No one part on a vehicle is it's "soul" or identity.. the collection of specific parts constitutes the specific model regardless of the source of those parts. If the seller changes the VIN on the shell/body tub, and represents it as "Born with Sheetmetal"... then that is fraud. You may, or may not be able to tell that. Usually you would have to have knowledge of the body panel date code system, and there would have to be enough date codes visible to detect if it is, or is not, a "born with sheetmetal" car. This whole conversation is really about intent.. If a guy intends to deceive a buyer, regardless of what work is done, then that is always wrong. If he is simply trying to save his car, and will go to the lengths required, and spend the fat stacks of cash to do a full frame off, then who are we to condemn that effort? Who made any of us the arbitrator of what is or is not an acceptable restoration process? And I don't want to hear about State/Federal laws, those were intended to prevent car theft, not restoration. Sure, will you find a case of some overzealous bureaucrat that perverts the law to punish some poor smuck who just wants to drive his vette?.. Yes, you will, and you will also find nearly universal disapproval from those of us who care to have an opinion. The widely held view, that prompted the creation of this thread, makes no mechanical or common sense... "Sure replace every panel on the tub with Chinese steel body parts, and every bolt on part from cars far and wide, that's ok... as long as the VIN tag has not been touched". Then you can present it as an "original car". That argument is devoid of any logic. Beyond the obvious reasons, here is another take... the body shell, assembled by Fisher, is the most desirable piece to have. Any body that has had panel replacement is something less than that. Most likely, the steel is not as good as originally used, and there is almost always some damaged areas that are not fully replaced.. pieces and parts are patched in. Many guys can do this work properly, but unless your standing there watching him, how do you know if it was done correctly? Is your perfect car going to develop seam rust in 6 months?.. YOU DON'T KNOW. I am just not being a dick here.. I have seen too many folks get swindled by "ya, it's the original body" guys.. those clowns wrap themselves in the "tags never removed" flag, and provide the new buyer with a massively sub-standard vehicle with either horrendous panel replacements, or gallons of filler.. or both.. Correctly replacing all those panels is an expensive proposition, that is never going to be done by a flipper. Bet on that. Every shortcut that can be taken will be, to save money. But hey, the tags have never been touched.. Their are two categories of used vintage Muscle cars as far a I am concerned. 1. The extremely rare, original sheetmetal cars that have never been damaged, rusted or altered in any way. 2. And the rest of them.. If your buying a GS in that second category, and the OE application of the body shell is a big deal to you, but the car is full of Skylark parts.. well, that logic does not compute with me. JW P.S. All this is becoming a mute point anyway, as the pool of rust free skylarks dries up, and the ones that are left command an ever increasing pricetag.
US criminal resource manual, section 511A of title 18. makes it a felony to remove , alter, or tamper with a federal vin tag. you can read it for yourself. there are no exceptions.
I don't know crap about any of this ... to JW's point.... I'm pretty sure I have seen on Graveyard Carz and other shows them removing the VIN, replacing cowl and reattching the VIN.
Your absolutely correct Flame, because the lawmakers never considered the conversation we are having, or they would have carved out an exception. I am no lawyer, but there is book law, and practical law. It's against the law to J-walk across the street in every state in the union to my knowledge. Good luck finding a cop to write that ticket, much less a prosecutor to press the case. Vin and trim tag removal/replacement is done all the time in restoration shops. I would argue that it the case of the VIN tag, it's impossible to do the job correctly with that tag in place. Mask it off, and it will be "kinda right".. when I was doing restos, we did not do that type of half-way work. You can paint with the trim tag masked like the factory did, but you can't blast away any rust/corrosion under that tag, without removing it. And while technically a law was broken, no one was affected by this in a negative way. Which is my whole point here. JW
sorry to argue with one of the big guys on here but there are no exceptions for "restoring" your car. you can argue if it should be ok to do, but its not legal now. maybe they wouldnt go after you for doing this on your personal car but go ahead and let them know that you have done 50 plus of them in your business dealings and let me know how that works out for you. as a collision shop owner for 30 years and someone who has built over 2000 cars with rebuilt titles, i have had plenty of conversations with police officers, inspectors and state officials over the years about vins and things like this.
sorry to argue with one of the big guys on here but there are no exceptions for "restoring" your car. you can argue if it should be ok to do, but its not legal now. maybe they wouldnt go after you for doing this on your personal car but go ahead and let them know that you have done 50 plus of them in your business dealings and let me know how that works out for you. as a collision shop owner for 30 years and someone who has built over 2000 cars with rebuilt titles, i have had plenty of conversations with police officers, inspectors and state officials over the years about vins and things like this.
1999 to 2004 grand cherokees had there vins riveted to the dash pad. yes the one that pops open when the airbag deploys. had many of those salvaged by the ins. co. because they could not transfer the vin to the new dash pad legally.
Jim, as would be expected, you have a well thought out reply. I may disagree with some of it, but I was also just thinking about that "donor" pool of Skylarks drying up. Heck, the quantity of restorable GS's is drying up for that matter. But, please allow me to ask you this - why aren't you coming on here and first denouncing what B_ _ _ _ _ 455 was contemplating regarding his own Skylark? If you're going to suggest any car is just a collection of correct parts (even the serialized car body), aren't you are essentially in agreement with his idea that the VIN tag and and Cowl tag are the only things that have value? Forgive me if I may sound judgmental, I never intend to sound like that and in fact I'm in the opposite camp, far from being a purist. I think folks should be satisfied with a Skylark and an unoriginal drivetrain - say 455 swap, and not trying to make their car into something it isn't.
Well, I hate to be disagreeable, but the DOJ has clarified the application of section 511A of title 18 of the US code. And excerpt: 1375. Proving Violations Of 18 U.S.C. 511 It is not necessary to allege in the indictment the absence of the exceptions contained in subsection 18 U.S.C. § 511 (b). See this Manual at 226 (Negating Statutory Exceptions). The use of the term "unlawfully" excludes the coverage of the lawful removal or destruction of a number. A reason why you may wish to specifically describe the altered VIN is to establish with some specificity the actual motor vehicle which is the subject matter of the indictment. To prove a violation of Section 511, it must be established that: (1) the defendant knowingly removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered an identification number on a road motor vehicle (or component); (2) the identification number was one required by the United States Department of Transportation (DOT); and (3) such conduct was not done lawfully (e.g., defendant knew the vehicle was stolen and was trying to conceal its identity). Further: The evidence must establish an unlawful removal or falsification. The lawful removals can be found in 18 U.S.C. §§ 511(b) and 512(a)(3). Under subsection 511(b), these lawful exceptions do not apply if the person knows that the motor vehicle or part is stolen. Except for the area of "repair," these exceptions should cause no significant enforcement problem. The relevant portion of H.R.Rep. No. 1089 on H.R. 6257, 98th Cong., 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984), makes clear that the "repair" exception is intended for the protection of the honest body shop operator who while fixing a part does some injury to its identification number. The exception "is not intended to apply to the operators of "chop shops,' who remove such parts - not repairing or recycling them for lawful purposes." Most of the states that are parties to the interstate compact, which created the Vehicle Equipment Safety Commission (VESC), have established under their respective state laws, procedures for the restoration and replacement of missing identification numbers. See Regulation VESC-18, Standardized Replacement Vehicle Identification Number System. Here is the entire text of the US Department of Justice: https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1375-proving-violations-18-usc-511 It's clear that the intent here is to prevent Auto Theft, and the operation of chop shops. There are in fact exemptions carved out for repair, or accidental damage to tags. But even those don't apply if the person doing it Knows the vehicle is stolen. After reading the law, the clarification and the exemptions, I am going to take the hard, layman's stance here and say that: NO, it is not illegal to remove a VIN Tag, if you know the vehicle(s) in question are not stolen. JW
I can't see every thread on the board Brian, in fact I missed this one for a couple years it looks like.. as to your last statement, I would argue that without the correct "collection of parts" then the VIN/Trim tags are in fact worthless. I have seen a lot of fakes in my day, I have done many GS/GSX pre-purchase inspections. I have yet to see one that cannot be relatively easily detected. Even if they get the easy ones, the Frame number usually gives it away, either the actual VIN of the vehicle, or the PN of the frame. Most guys who are trying to defraud someone are unaware that the frame contains not only the VIN number of the vehicle, but also a specific part number for a GS 455. JW
this means that all i have to do is buy a title and tag, pop rivet it onto a skylark and now its a GSX? if i replace every part on a car at some point is it even the same car?
Yup, and I respect your opinion on this. Everyone has the right to their own viewpoint on a topic like this. I was only prompted to post on it, after the piling on started. JW
Nope.. collection of parts... every model has a very specific collection of parts, from Frames to engines to steering wheels... and I have yet to ever see anyone go to the lengths it would take to "create" something from a pile of very hard to find parts and a tag set. Practically, our cars are simply not worth the effort it would take.. you would spend more building an undetectable fake, than you could sell it for.. if you doubt that, check out the price/availability of a 3.64 geared 8.2 rear. IF you can find it, they command upwards of a thousand dollars, for something your going to have to put nearly the same dollars into, to slip it under your "fake" GSX. Luckily for us, this mitigates this issue in our little corner of the Musclecar world. In the Corvette world, this has been a much bigger issue, but even there, it can be done. I had a very rich and eccentric acquaintance some years ago, who took offense to another guy that said he could not build an undetectable fake.. This guy was wealthy, owned a machine shop, and was a very skilled bodyman, with attention to detail that you rarely find. If he needed a tag or punch, he made it... He proceeded to take 3 wrecked 67 Vettes, and build one Tri Power ragtop, that won numerous awards, including Bloomington Gold. And not one of them was originally a 427 car. After he proved he could do it, he disassembled it, and spread the 427 specific parts to the wind, and put together the small block ragtop it originally was. So it can be done, but in our world... Not likely JW
There has to be some miscommunication here Jim, and I respect you way to much to not clear it up. You yourself said the white X can't be saved in B_ _ _ _ _ 455's post IIRC. If that is the case, something here is not adding up. Now it seems as though you're suggesting that if this cat can save the X's tags, "levitate" them onto his Skylark, subsequently add in enough correct parts, spray on some code 10 paint, and then somehow this X is somehow back in the game? Call me confused
Nope, the tags are melted on that car.. no way they survived that fire. But let's say that the tags survived.. nope a skylark has the wrong frame.. amongst many, many other parts.. Again, my reply is a practical one.. that car was hot enough to sag the body and frame, no doubt warp the rear and and totally destroy the engine/transmission. There is nothing left of the specific "collection of parts" to save. One would spend way more than the car is worth, to build exactly what was there.. not just a skylark with code 10 paint on it, but I am talking the very specific parts it takes.. from the front spoiler to the rear spoiler, and every GSX/big block part in between, and having all of them date code correct. It's simply not feasible from a financial standpoint, hence my reply "That one is too far gone". Take the tags off, what is left of them, and nail them on the garage wall, to remember what you once owned. But let me ask you this Brian, as a practical matter: What in your mind, constitutes a 70GSX, if not the "collection of the correct parts". More to the point... Let's say I wasn't 4 years old in 1970.. but I was an adult that worked in the Fisher body plant. As the body shells came down the line, devoid of anything other than paperwork, If I took the paperwork off one body shell, that happened to be a GSX, and moved it to a shell that was slated to be a 6cyl base skylark, is the resulting car not a GSX? Is it really still a 6cly granny car, posing as some supercar?? Of course not... the collection of parts, prompted by that paperwork, dictates what it is. From emblems to carpet underlayment. I think we can all agree on that. My contention is this..if some 50 years later, I happen to own the first body shell that had the GSX paperwork taped to it.. but was built as the 6 cylinder car, and it miraculously survived the years in perfect condition. the GSX that resulted from the 6 cyl shell, saw a much harder life in a northern climate.. so it's all rotted out. What your contending, if I understand your viewpoint correctly , is that if I take the good shell, and replace the rusted one, I no longer have a GSX. I have committed some type of fraud. Correct? This has been a fun way to spend Saturday morning, I will be interested in your, and others opinions on the subject.. But I have to get something done today.. JW
