B-Body Spindles vs GM Spindle Length Spacer

I remember somet time back that either Leviathan (clint) or G-Body Dave had a thread up about doing the B-body Spindle swap with the the 1LE rotors, excellent idea, would love to do the swap myself, but kinda expnsive.

I ran into the thread over on the Chevelle website about using spindle length spacers to give more negative camber, to help the tire remain more flatter on the ground and retain all your current suspension.

As I see it now the only advantage to the 1LE swap w/ b-body spindles is the braking ( that is if these extenders are/do what the say will do).

Other than the Hotchkis upper control arm,to correct the geometry, the rest of the avalible arms ( based on my research) still require an offset shaft to work because they are G-Body only designed, if thats the case just use the the offset shafts on the stock upper arm.

I just had my frontend rebuilt about a year ago with polyurethane bushings/ the works and all. trying to save some money and get my Regal to handle better.

Heres the links I ran across that got me thinking.
the Chevelle website thread
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30593

the HOTROD article about them being installed and tested
http://www.hotrod.com/howto/50358/

and the company that makes them
https://www.pro-motorsports.com/store/product.asp?id=66

just wanted some input or/thoughts

thanks ahead of time
later

 

Hey Chris,

Well, I did the upper arm/12" brake thing last year and I love it! The better brakes are nice but the handling is what really does it.

I have an unmodified 1978 Wagon that's wallowy and understeers. The 79 with the upper arm changing the geometry is in a totally different class. The whole front end feels significantly tighter.

I wouldn't waste time with the extenders, save up and get the full package. Definitely worth the effort.

 

Clint

Hey thanks for refreshing my memory on who did the brakes.

I' ve ask in other discussion boards and forums the same question, all responded about the same way you did, but critized the bumpsteer of the set up.

Having those tubular arms, are they a improvement tho? They still require the the upper a-arm offset shaft for them to work.

I am looking for better braking and handling for my Regal, but trying to pinch pennies too, would it hurt just to keep my stock upper arms( with polly bushings) and use the off set shaft and still get good upgraded brakes ? (my suspension is all new)

I have an old HOTROD November 1988 article wich they did that to a 1985 Monte Carlo with a 454 in it. handle quite well with 245/50/16 on the ft and 255/50/16 on the rears with H-O Suspension sway bars , and springs Ft and rear, it pulled .85g on a skid pad is that good?

Short of the spindles and the off-set shafts, I can get everything from my job, everything was pretty much in stock .

Did you have to change to diffrent outer tie rods to fit the B-body spindles?

Again thanks :TU:

 

Hi Chris,

Sorry it takes me so long to get back on here, but here are the answers nonetheless...

I went with the tubular uppers and a reinforced offset and yeah, well worth the money for the tubulars. The bumpsteer is made worse this way, the only fix is to cut and weld your outer tie rods, not something I reccomend. On the whole a tight suspension will combat the bumpsteer and not bother you too much. The real advantage to the tubulars is the negative roll (stock is positive) conversion. without the tubulars you don't get this and its really the key to good handling in the G-body IMHO. It won't hurt, but it won't really feel any better.

I really think that just the shaft will be almost unnoticable unless you are really playing corners with your Regal and know its limits. The best bang-for-the $$$ suspension mods are the jounce bars, frame ties, poly bushings. you can feel the difference with each of these for less than $100.

.85 is not bad given the heavy 454. My 1978 Century (unmodified) will do .82 on 205/50/15's so really they've just countered the 454's extra weight with a slight improvement. My experience is that .92 is not impossible with a G-body 455, but it's been a lot of tuning work. The effect of this is that I can outcorner most of the new sport-compacts (.89 for an S2000). The Wagons give a better weight distribution so you'll need to work a bit harder in the coupe. I've yet to spend significant time with the Wagon this year and I've got it on good authority it will push into the .95's (Porshe territory).

Tie rods remain the same, no work necessary :TU:

Hope that helps Chris!

 

i have been doing a BUNCH of reading on this. there are several thing i must add/ correct:

1. The extenders i have seen are pretty cheesy. they just bolt on and dont engage into the spindle with a taper. dangerous if you ask me. you are better offusing tall ball joints from howe. these are generally accepted and are asecure way to go about this. you can go about this in two ways... use just the upper tall joint.. or use the bottom ones as well... and lower the car about 3/4". the bottom ones will bring you bavk to the bump steer thing ... i think.

which brings me to the next subject... bump steer. how makes an adjustable drag link that takes care of the bump steer problem. i suppose it is a drop/raise drag link. unconfirmed here also ... this is my research. btw, do not cut or weld tie rod ends.... better ways around this.

the howe drag link should get you around the bump problem with the tall spindles . but won't fix the ratio problem, since the the steering arm is longer. this will widen your turn radius also.

The b body spindles do correct your camber curve alot as well as give you some rotor options. many say that the curve is better with the stockers and the tall ball joints. the stockers don't have have steering ratio problems that the tall's do. they do have some amount of bump steer to address, depending on how picky you are. this will still dictate thuse of the adjustable drag link, if that is aproblem for your tastes, then again... it depends on what you want to do with the car.

i also saw a set up with the stock uppers, extenders and off set shaft. the ball joint angle was scary looking. i wouldn't even contemplate that.

the big advantage to the stock a body arms(don't know about the g-body) is the ability to use of the shelf c4 12" and c5 13" rotors. another guy made brackets and used cheap and attainable 3/4 ton suburban calipers on the 12" rotors.

you are looking in th right places... but there is way more information you need to read before you begin. there are so many ways to do this, it's unreal.


Try looking on Pro-Touring.com and Lateral-g. there is wealth of info there.


i will be making a thread on the subject soon i have done a lot if research and have posted abou 5% of it here so far. literally. there is more research to do. there is another fellow compiling info on another bard as well. their info is like ours... scattered here and there. he is trying to compile it and make on big thread for itall. i will do the same here.

today i had carpal tunnel release on my left hand and this has taken for ever to type. iwill still work on this. be pateint! i willalso post links to all of this.


btw... alot of this is a body stuff... but related t the g body

 

STILL reading there is mind numbing # of ways to do this. i still intend on making a thread out of this, but must orinize the information first. may start
writting up when i can type with my left again.

we are SO behind on this in the buick communiy!

 

Same here s l o w in replying

Thanks Clint and thanks Rob, so much info .......

I'm not relly planning to compete with the upgraded suspension just knowing it will handle and brake better is a big piece of mind.

What inspire all this thinking was crusing in my ummmmm mini van on a tight off ramp curve in Indy and thinking how sweet it would be to handle the curve better, like a Vette, a couple secs later a vette passed me on the outside like nothing doing....... well got my mind going on the Regal......
anyways :grin:

Just want it to be good and safe.... Ill look into to those arms Clint thanks

 

just got back from iowa... wow..iowa. i think cattle fall aseep from bordom around the parts i visited. rock valley and sioux rapids. don't bilnk, you might miss both :laugh: anyway...

i still plan on a thread for this. i'm think'n the same way.good stopping power would be nice alone. I think for starters, i will use the b body spindles with calipers and rotors that came with it. acording to GW, the rotors should be 5 on 5. they are 5 on 4 1/2. my spare set of rear drumm off of my car fit right over the studs. this means i don't have to do any camero rotor crap. they will go on witht the adjustable upper arms and a pair of turned down lower ball joints. then i think i will go with a hydraboost and a non power s-10 master cylinder. then an adustable valve insted of the proportioning block. this way i can go with what i will eventually end up with without doubling back with any parts other than the b body spindles that i can probably get my money back from.

the plan in the works is a front/disc package that i need to settle on. Looks like c5 brakes all around with drum spindles(cut down one of the bolt bosses/custom caliper bracket) :Brow: I still need to do the piston math to make sure that all the mc will have the right mechanical advantage with those calipers. then some tall ball joints to correct the camber curve.


More later

 

Anytime! Let me know if you want the pics reposted. Check out those jounce bars too if you're on a budget :TU:

 

Marc

Again thanks for the reply.... long trip eh? :sleep:

I ran the GM #'s from my article with the info I had at work, #14008641 is a five on five.
#18016035 are the 5 on 4 3/4, 1LE rotors.

If I remember CLint stated the the stock GN wheels (the one I am currently runnig) won't work.

Hey Clint still have those pics on your build up?

Again thanks guys

 

Again Clint ya lost me,, "jounce bars" ?

I did reread this thread and you stated you didnt have to change your outer tie rod ends?

I did read that on should that the the B-body spindle holes where a bit bigger and the taper was different , one was to use TRW s # ES033R s. although it was noted that the factory tierods would work, just not properly.

again thanks

 

Hi Chris,

If I ever get out of work :af: tonight I'll post those pics again...

The jounce bars or frame br are the frame ties that connect the middle of the engine cross member to the ends of the frame.

Seen here:

http://malibunorth.freeservers.com/FrBraces.htm

These are really common on Grand Prix and some cutlasses and will cost you $5 at the wrecker...

Do you happen to have the article about the tie rods not fitting? My tie rod ends were a correct fit (lots of paranoid measuring going on) and I've never had any binding or wear. I've gone over all my old articles on this and could not find any mention of the conflict and one article that says they're fine:

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/brakes/12inch2.html



The stock GN wheels had touble with the backspacing, not the bolt pattern. (It is indeed a 5x% you're looking for). You'll want to go to a really good spacer that's properly balanced or look into the 84-85 T Type wheels which fit no problem...

 

Clint

"jounce bars" yep already got those installed :TU: Dont have the ones for under the hood yet, need to get those and the GNX braces for behind the rear seat too.

I find that article again from work, its from a HOW TO book of Pro Touring, written by one of the guys from either www.lateral-g.net or from www.pro-touring.com cant remember the authors name.
I look into it tommorow.

and if you can a couple of those pics please

thanks again

 

Will do Chris, I think I might actually get an evening at home tonight!

 

Clint

Let me she some light on the tierod confusion.

I am quoting from the PRO-Touring Book by Tony E. Huntimer from S.A. designs.../ Cartech books

.

Well I went to My sales catalogs on the Chevelle Monte Carlo, 80's included, it has the same part number for stock applications...... so I was going by what was stated

one less thing for me to buy.....

so yes one can retain their stock outer tie-rods :TU:

 

I was reading this thread with much interest. I helped a friend do a disc swap onto his 70 Cutlass. We used B-Body spindles (from 95 Caprice) and 1LE rotors. It really turned out nice, with great handling.
I went to junkyard and bought 2 complete disc set-ups from a 94 Caprice cop car and a 96 Caprice cop car. I had intended to use these on a 70 Skylark and a 67 Chevelle. Well.....the Skylark got sold and the Chevelle got wrecked (totalled). So here I am with a couple disc brake set-ups and nothing to put them on. I probably need to post this in FOR SALE area, but if anyone wants these, I`ll take $50 each. This is spindles with rotors and calipers still bolted to up.

 

Just to clarify: I have the disc conversion parts to do 2 cars. The $50 is for the parts for 1 car. I am pretty sure these rotors are the big bolt pattern. You can get 1LE rotors for about $100 each.

 

Donnie

Thanks for the INFO .....

Yes I verry, Verry , Very Interested in one of those set ups.

I want one , is it possible to hang on to one till after Christmas?That way I know where my finances are, have to replace brake lines and get the other parts(i.e. 1LE rotors, offset shafts new bearings and pads) for them to work on my Regal anyways.

Again thanks ahead of time if you can

Merry Christmas!!

 

Sure, no problem. I`ll hang on to one set until after Christmas. Not a problem at all. Just let me know when you`re ready or I`ll check back if I haven`t heard from you after New Years. :beer

 

Sorry about the wait, I finally have a weekend off :TU:

Here's a comparison shot of the spindles and rotors. G Body onthe left, B body on the right. The rotors do come in a vented disc if want a little more stopping power...