350 Pistons

Federal Mogul has had some real Product quality issues after they move their piston (Cast- Sealed Power) (hyper and forged- Speed Pro) production to India here about 3-4 years ago.. Buyer Beware.

I have seen this personally, and have heard it from many of my peers, and other industry sources.

JW

 

Damn Derek, insulting me won't make your points any more credible.

I don't normally post in the body section because of assumptions like the ones you just spewed out will commence.

I have done much more than just body work in my life. I'm a gearhead as well, even though you seem to have trouble believing that.

All I said was if you're going to machine the engine any way (the proper way to do it), then getting custom pistons to match your deck won't be totally necessary.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

You wonder why I have retorts for posts like this, and then all anyone wants to remember are the ones I posted, not ones like this that started a **** storm.

I got a forum ban threat for responding to stuff like this to the 'wrong' person, apparently you're not important enough to even bother with.

I wasn't 'butthurt' in the previous post you claim I was, thinking it was all about you. It wasn't. It was about responding to posts just like this where people love to bust my balls and twist my words.

I was trying my best to let it go and not start an argument with you, but you seem to insist on wanting to start one anyway.

All the information anyone needs to know is either here already or elsewhere on the internet.

You wonder why I don't want to post here anymore? It's **** like this.

Even though the vast majority of your assumptions and insults are incorrect, I'm not even going to dignify it with detailing each and every lie with a defense.

Hopefully the OP can look past all the hate and get the information he needs.

 

I never thought any of you whining posting were about me, on the contrary it was self pity posts that read like you were but hurt.

As far as lies, if I wanted to spend the time I could search and find the previous post where you were swimming neck deep in that river in Egypt. Its ok Gary, no one but Bullwinkle knows it all.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...0E4D36772B1D1975B6480E4D36772B1D197&FORM=VIRE



Derek

 

All things considered, the original point of my postings was cast vs forged; name brands and where they're made and/or product quality being incidental.

I agree this is a very important aspect and needs addressing, since I wouldn't want anyone using an inferior product that could potentially damage their engine!

IF it has been found that Sealed Power/Speed Pro products have taken a nose dive, then I suppose the answer would be fairly simple: do not use them.

Distracting from the original point won't deter from the fact that there are benefits to using cast over forged, and vice-versa, depending on the application, all preferences aside.

It's sad that people are so dishonest that they would jeopardize their company's reputation by knowingly using junk parts to provide services.

As I have said earlier in this thread, if one could procure forged offerings with a similar expansion coefficient as cast pistons, then surely there would be little sense in using cast offerings, especially if they're not that much more money.

Taking short cuts with building by removing necessary machining required to do it properly while in the same breath saying using cast pistons is taking the 'cheap' way out seems a bit hypocritical to me...

I didn't realize Speed Pro/Sealed Power pistons were having such trouble, or I would have altered my statements about using them earlier, of course. The point not being the brand so much as it was cast pistons in general.

Thanks to everyone for helping to straighten this mess out. Factual information is critical.

(to the text in bold: I find the irony to this statement concerning the entirety of the posts herein so obvious that no further comments need to be issued forth...)


Gary

 

Why don't you take your own advice and stop talking about things you don't know anything about. I am clearly being singled out here and was punished for something that others here do as well, simply because I have something else to say that others who are trying to sell products and/or services don't agree with.

Calling it 'self pity' is a bit of a stretch, unless of course your sole purpose is to just be an asshole, which you are succeeding at here for all to see.

I'm not denying anything Derek. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong, and have done so in the past. At least I try to correct any mistakes made, unlike others who will stubbornly cling to their beliefs despite the presence of information to the contrary.

My information here is solid, as well as my experience. Trying to attack my credibility just shows desperation.

Information can change, and I am as fluid to adjust to it as water. My quick wit and grasp of how things work is intimidating, I know.

Are you going to admit you were wrong about Indian made pistons that Steve used when he said they were USA made just like yours? (which just further validates my assertions made earlier in a post that was completely ignored--along with all my other valid points) Or will that get buried like the rest of your assumed claims while you try to continue this pointless argument about who's right and who's wrong?

If your ego needs that big of a bolster, then sure go ahead. You're right and I'm wrong. Feel any better now? (never mind whether or not it's actually true)


Gary

 

In the blue, I'm not here trying to sell anything but the happiness of a well running sbb 350 engine so the person with a sbb 350 won't bash what a turd it is after rebuilding it. What do you think is the number one reason there is almost zero aftermarket support for a sbb 350? And nor were the opposing posters that time you got the warning trying to sell something just because he had a wall of parts that would fix the problem he couldn't care less if he sold them, their fix was actually less expensive than what you purposed also. Just try to buy the part you recommended, its probably not reproduced but if it was it would probably be just south of $400 plus the other items to compliment what you recommended.

In the bold, I will admit I was picking on you a little bit to try and get you to grow thicker skin. And hell yes you have been posting self pitying posts, waaaaa, so and so is picking on me why is everyone persecuting me, if you weren't a grown man I would tell you "QUIET OR I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO CRY ABOUT"! lol

You're a smart guy Gary, everyone here that reads your posts here can see that, you don't need to defend that. That being said, you're not Bullwinkle but yet at times you try to defend yourself like you are, or is it like Eric Cartman?("respect my author-a-tie") You had two guys with over 60 years combined Buick experience tell you that you were wrong with your post that read like a book report of the previous posts in that thread and you started your self pitying posting along with arguing to defend the book report of the previous posts. uzzled: Come dude, you're better than that, or are you actually the one and only Bullwinkle? Either your medication needs to be adjusted or you need some testosterone treatments to counterbalance the estrogen inspired posting. :eek2:

In the red, are you sure Gary? You were wrong when you posted the book report of previous posts and you were ready to defend that position for however many pages of posts it took. Plus the fact that the only thing you know about block machining is what you have read about. "Proper machining" you previously mentioned would bring up the price tag more that you think. A "properly machined" block(as you mentioned) can cost as much as $1,000 + depending on what is needed even more if the corrective extra deck machining is performed. But being its a "stock" "budget" rebuild corners need to be cut to do the minimum to make it run again, no $$ in the budget for custom blueprint machining to make cheaper parts work the way they should. Deck machining is a corner that can be cut because we now have composite gaskets that will seal without machining the deck or the heads. Catch 22 is a "stock" replacement piston is destroked .020" and the composite gasket is .020" to .027" thicker than the factory steal shim head gasket which you're swimming in the Egyptian river about. And don't forget about the extra material the General left on the deck from the factory as well that will bring the compression down even further. Had to rewrite this because it is obviously not sinking in, must be water in your eyes from swimming. :eek2: For "stock" rebuild machining it should cost $300 to $500 depending on ones local machine shop's pricing and that doesn't include milling the deck. Its just clean, bore & hone, freeze plugs and cam bearings, what extras do you want?$$$(or need in some cases)

All I was trying to let the OP Know was that the WAY better than "stock" replacement pistons could be used and run better without any bell and whistle machining cost added on(me trying to not sell something) and you just got blinded by the price of the parts and pointed your finger at me saying I was trying to get him to build a performance engine while all I was trying to do is help him build an engine that performs well and not run like a disappointing turd. Then you started pointing your finger at me that I think the only piston to use is a forged one after I posted how I liked the factory ones WAY better than the "stock" replacement ones.(FYI, the factory sbb 350 pistons are cast if you forgot)


In the green, I must of remembered wrong because I thought Steve bought the pistons after they started making them in India. Oh well I guess Speed-pros are junk no matter where they're made, now made overseas can't see them made any better.

In the yellow, it wasn't about right or wrong Gary, my point was that better pistons wouldn't cost as much as the price tag factoring in the hidden costs to make the lessor pistons run decent. Of coarse they won't run as good because they weight almost 3 lbs more than the pistons in the link and with thinner rings that the linked pistons would come with would be less friction drag as well for unlocking free HP & torque.

Even you calling me names isn't getting me worked up, I'm taking it like a MAN, man and just telling it the way I see it, and I'm sorry if that bothers you, man up and get over it.



Derek

 

Wrong. You wanted to make sure those forged pistons were glistening and gleaming in the sun, while everything else was deemed 'crappy'. You sure were pushing them (and have pushed them in the past) awfully hard. If it was purely because it was the ONLY thing out there, you wouldn't have been backpedaling on the cast pistons a few posts later.
The opposing poster (there was only one) was trying to make it out like his option was the only one anyone should listen to, and kept getting more and more aggressive until he finally started attacking my credibility (as others (and even you here now) have/are doing), and when I gave a final retort about it pointing it out, someone (I won't mention who) came unglued on me. I never broke any forum rules, unlike what we see here in this thread now by you and others all over the place.

I can even live with that and let it go, but no, that's not good enough for you.

You exaggerate so far that you even make things up because you'd have no argument otherwise. It would have been cheaper my way (when have you ever saw me suggest a more expensive option??) because I wasn't suggesting to buy a 200 dollar water pump among other things.

This isn't about being butthurt. This is about slander. Making things up and twisting words to try to discredit anything I have to say just so you can have something to argue about or make your point seem more valid than mine. You're really grasping at straws now.

Sure thing, tough guy. My skin is not only thick, but it's full of spines. You want to try and smack me around, don't get upset when you get some thorns stuck in your hand. Only I'll be the one who gets in trouble for it though.

What's up with all the Bullwinkle references? Been watching cartoons a lot lately with all the extra time you have on your hands being unemployed trying to sell stuff, and now you're getting desperate? At least there's cable down in your mom's basement, eh?
See? I can toss around insults too...does it get us anywhere productive? No, but it sure does distract from the points made in this thread, huh. Maybe even give everyone a chuckle.

I'm not sure I'm remembering the specific thread you're talking about with the 'book report' reference. I didn't realize the costs of decking a block had gone up so much. Is this what you charge?
Factory steel shim gaskets were .020 thick, composite .045 or thereabouts, yes. This is worth about half a point of static compression or so, as is the ~.020 lower replacement pistons. So that's 7.5:1 static, not 6.5 static, as you claimed in an earlier post. If decking were performed, it would be 8:1, as I said earlier in a post of mine. So where does your accusations and argument sit now, other than trying desperately to use your area of expertise to bludgeon me over the head? Not all factory decks were exactly .080 taller than book specs. I suspect this is more exaggeration to try and make your 'point' look better. They were taller, yes. Using Steve as an outside reference, a block he measured came out to factory pistons sitting .090-.095 below deck, if memory serves. This means in order to get .070 below deck using even the cheap low comp pistons (Speed Pros are the cheapest, Keith Black's sit a bit higher and have less dish volume for a few bucks more, and are made in Mexico I think?), which would equate to 8:1 static, you'd need to take off .020 more from .095 (say), putting those at .115 with an untouched deck. That would be .045 total removed from deck and/or heads. This type of machining is not uncommon at all. Doing this to the higher comp variants would put you closer to 10:1 static.

As was previously suggested, simply putting in the 340p pistons would net well over 9:1 static, with zero machine work. So how do the forged pistons fare against that price wise? Oh wait, those are made in India, can't use those right? I find it amazing to read how every cast piston made or sitting around on shelves are all just ticking time bombs waiting to go off inside someone's engine, and people keep selling them anyway.

Actually, that's not all you're trying to do here, as we can all plainly see. Try again? You can't lie anymore once your hand is caught in the cookie jar.

Yes, we all know now. Everything is junk other than what you recommend. Anyone who says different has to endure quite a beating, with other topics brought up that have nothing to do with the thread other than to smear someone. To the text in bold: you directly contradict yourself here as in a previous post you said your USA made Speed Pro pistons have taken severe beatings by you trying to blow it up so you can build something else. So what is it? Are they junk or not? (hint: reread a previous post by me about silicon saturation in aluminum). Another valid point I made that you chose to ignore.

Even me calling you names? lol Show me where? Seems you're the one doing this here. Not getting worked up? I'm polite enough to try and let things go, and you keep on and on, getting even more colorful with your inability to quote properly. You're running out of crayons, Derek.

You even stalk me on the forums to try to find ammunition to use against me here in this thread. You are clearly desperate to 'win' something.

"The way you see it" apparently includes bashing not only certain parts, but certain people as well. You have to machine any engine to do it properly, and if you skimp out to try to save money because your forged offerings are 2-3x more money, then I can understand why you'd use that as an arguing point.

I'm getting plain tired of all this, and I'm sure everyone else is too. You've violated far, far more in this one thread than I have in the entirety of my being here on this forum. Where is YOUR forum ban threat?

I won't hold my breath.

 

Well are you two done now or is this going to go on forever?

I don't even know what the hell to buy now. Too much crap on here as usual because we just can't keep from arguing about who is right.

and in this corner we have the 350 Buick all stock blueprinted with 450 ft lbs of tq and 320 hp and in this corner we have the 350 Chevy with 430 hp with 370 ft lbs of tq.

Which one is going to win people we have a good race here come on lets do a poll on this who's side are you on.

:moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu::moonu:

 

The Buick will get the Chevy outta the hole, but I think the Chevy will win, maybeou: I don't know:bla:

 

Yeah I know. I'm sorry.

I predicted this would happen, and instead of just tucking my tail between my legs and not responding and let him beat on me, I defended myself and now it's all looked at as we're both fighting, instead of him starting a fight and me defending myself. I guess I should just not ever respond to anything like this and look like a punk.

I'll just go away now and let him give his final retort, which is surely coming.

I never wanted to argue in the first place, and got sucked in again.

Apologies everyone. I'm done with this.


Gary

 

Dam Gary, I can see why you got a warning, resorting to off topic personal attacks and kicking a guy when he's down. Talk about stalking someone from a different thread, I only mentioned being laid off for the month of July once on this board in a totally different section. Thick skin, HA, I would call that thinner than crape paper there bud.

Anyway while you insist on staying in the water swimming in that river, here is another hidden cost for you that is in black and white;

http://taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=62

Steal shim head gaskets $95 vs the composite head gaskets that cost $45. Which one is the regular unknowing budget guy going to pick?(especially if they skipped the deck machining costs, the composites should definitely be used to make the heads seal)

So now instead of being $150 more for minimum cleanup for machining the deck, there's another $50 extra for head gaskets.(look Gary, still on topic) Now that could be $200 more to go towards much superior pistons, add the cost of rings that are included with the pistons in the link then that is $75 more for the cheap cast rings;

http://taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_1635C

That is $275 that can go to the WAY better pistons with the rings included; $649 - $275 = $374 which is only $75 more for the WAY superior piston.( and this doesn't include taking the extra material off of the deck to make it .020" below the factory spec so the 'stock" replacement pistons will be at the advertised compression ratio, and NO .080" extra deck is NOT an exaggeration for some of the worser later model blocks, another example of you swimming)

Of coarse if the deck is so bad that the machine shop says a composite gasket won't even make it seal then there is no avoiding having the deck milled.(which would have to be really bad if an composite gasket couldn't seal it)


There you go Gary, on topic and in black and white showing you're wrong.



So many people on here that have done a rebuild on a sbb 350 that were disappointed on how bad it ran using the cheap parts is overwhelming, they can't figure why it runs like a turd.


And like I said if there was a customizable cast piston I would recommend that, but there's not so I don't, my hidden goal is for people to be happy with how the way their engine runs, nothing more.(talk about slander)




Derek

 

Wow!

 

I did not tell you to not defend yourself you do not need to you are smarter than that. You are letting yourself get sucked into this and now you want to let someone have the last word. You make your statement on what you think is right and be done with it. If someone does not like your statement that is their problem not your problem. Don't try to be more right than the other person that is how the argument starts.
Yopu are not the only one here starting to think their point is the only one, What about the other poster here that thinks he is right?

So you are going to let the Chevey win?

By the way where in the hell is his Buick motor that, still sitting in the garage waiting to be built like half the other Buick 350's that have been sitting here the last 5 years. Not doing a damn thing but bench racing.


I just wish one of you morons here would build a Buick 350 and really show us how it is done and at what cost so the rest of us dumbasses know how to do it.

F'n people ask a simple question here and it goes into a pissing match you guys on here are a piece of work.

 

Here is all you really need to know about pistons for the 350. the rest of it aint nothing but dumb bull....

Who was right do we really know, will we ever find out, as the mystery continues....

 

"wow!" indeed. Seriously, some of you guys are ridiculous. Give it a rest already.

 

Ok, how about this...

Derek and I are usually on pretty friendly terms. I guess it may be kinda like when you get in a fight with your brother. You can bicker and fight, but in the end, you hug each other and then everything's good. There wouldn't be anything one wouldn't do for the other, given different circumstances. Sorry everyone had to bear witness to it.

Derek: I honestly had no idea you were actually unemployed. It just seemed to fit with the cartoon watching and I just shoot from the hip. So for that I'm sorry. I've been there myself and it's no fun.

Moving on, and commenting about pistons: you couldn't go wrong getting the forged offerings if you can afford it. As everyone has said, they're good products and you can custom fit them to get whatever compression ratio you wanted.

I didn't realize Sealed Power was having trouble with product quality, or I would have never made my first comment, so that's my bad. I imagine you could still get a good set, but if it's a gamble, why take the chance? When in doubt, pull out. (that's what he said)

I agree with Derek for the most part, even though he exaggerates a wee bit too much...and went way over the top on the abuse, I still forgive him and I'm going to move on.

Derek, just let it go. Please. I'm asking nicely.

Hopefully the OP can ignore all this crap and get the info he needs.


Gary

 

Dont know about everyone else, but too much scrolling needed.

 

I was done dude, I showed everyone how wrong you were without exaggeration with links that could be followed with pricing that verified what I was trying to say. The only exaggeration can be the machining variable that can be plus $100 or minus $75 depending on local machine shop pricing.

In the bold, you need to take your own advice when someone agrees to disagree with you and let it go, like YOU need to let it go here.

If you insist on arguing you need to remember this is a family website and to keep it G-rated no more than PG! Cartoons are very G rated to reference and funny at the same time, so that's why I used them here to get a couple points across. I wonder who was the one that really went over the top here Gary, the person that tried to keep it G-rated or the person dropping A-bombs resorting to personal attacks to the other poster? If the above post is your way of apologizing to me, seriously? ou:

Thick skinned means that someone can ignore an insult from someone else, NOT that they can insult someone twice as bad.(period)(which I never did insult or personal attack you in any of my posts in this thread) Trying to get you to understand this so your contributions here will continue. You act like the persecuted people that are commanded to slay until they're slain that claim the innocent made them do it!(which whom will remain nameless)

Another tid bit relevant to the thread, is that skipping having the block bored and just have it honed will save a step and half the $$ that is charged for boring and honing. Have the shop hone the block the same to the biggest hole and order the pistons that size(in the OP case with washed out cylinders would probably be + .005" after honing which file fit rings would more than make up for). This makes the much better pistons even more affordable, virtually now the same cost(depending on local machine shop costs, could be even less or still slightly more) as the 340P pistons by giving the machine shop less money.

Next time you don't understand why I disagree with you Gary, I have an idea :idea2: , ask me why and how it can be, because math is fun and I don't mind showing the math like in the post with the links for the head gaskets and rings. I can go even further and ask Dave how much he charges to deck a block so I have an exact number to post for those that may be curious what the exact pricing is(hear anyway) if anyone that wants to know, let me know and I will call and ask and post answer.



Derek

 

I kinda expected you wouldn't bow out so gently. Oh well. You had your chance.

SO, how about this?

The exaggerations I refer to not only imply that the deck height can vary from block to block, and that saying .080 over book specs is nominal IS an exaggeration. The deck height can be as little as less than .030 over book specs (as well as more than this, obviously). I never denied this, even though when I first learned of it I was pretty amazed (as you suggested earlier). The exaggeration reference also applies to your accusations about me. Why dwell on this?

IF you don't plan on doing any deck/head milling, then obviously you'll want a piston with better (or closer to OEM) compression height (i.e., 340p pistons, which will have around 9.25:1 static with no machine work--depending on the extra deck material, of course). Even YOU (finally) agreed on THIS.

If *I* insist on arguing? THAT is rich! lol

Now you're trying to claim you never insulted or attack me? You can't be serious. You don't honestly expect people to believe that, do you? Saying it doesn't make it true...so now who's the real one 'swimming neck deep in that river in Egypt'??? Come on Derek, your desperation to save face is embarrassing. If you're going to accuse someone of not knowing how to do simple math, please save that for someone else other than me. That in itself is an insult, if I were to actually take you seriously and not perceive it as another condescending attempt to be a prick.

A-bomb? It's not even censored in the website's scripting, unlike fecal matter slang like the word ****. You think kids today don't talk like sailors in school when mommy and daddy aren't around? This is not 'R' rated stuff (restricted to ages 17 or older, which is still pretty young). Please do not pretend to be the victim here Derek. That's showing an all new kind of desperation. Having said that, I will endeavor to keep my postings 'cleaner' for you, so that your tender feelings don't get offended. Who's the one with thin skin? So now you're admitting you've been insulting me with your 'thick skinned' definition, instead of the 'tease me a little bit' as you suggested earlier. It takes some audacity to attack me and then try to turn it around to play like you're the victim here...talk about the estrogen overload (an insult or 'tease' as you put it, for me earlier)! Yes, it was an apology. I didn't realize you were unemployed, and the coincidence was unfortunate.

What I'm seeing here Derek is you are accusing me of the very same things you are guilty of yourself. Stop for a minute and think! Do you seriously think this could be resolved by continuing with your caustic references?

The only thing I was really 'wrong' about was the quality of the 340p pistons (or so I thought, by the testimonies of all the experts here telling me otherwise), so I did a little inquiry directly to Federal Mogul about it to see what they had to say, and here is my email response:

"Gary yes it is correct that some of Federal-Mogul Motorparts pistons are built in India and yes there was some issues at first, but that was 13 years ago and they were fixed 13 years ago, we have not had any reported problems with the 340P30 pistons. The 340P30 is the only piston size we still offer in the 340P family.
From Federal-Mogul Motorparts Garage Gurus Product Support Team
Please Call The Federal-Mogul Motorparts Garage Gurus Techline @ 800-325-8886."

I wasn't suggesting to use those cheap pistons as the ONLY alternative, but that is what you focus on because it is the most extreme example that makes your argument look better. If you consider the 340p pistons (the original piston inquiry), it evens the playing table a bit more.


So what's to be gained out of all this? He was asking if he could get away with using the 340p pistons and I told him it would be fine, then I had to do a double-take on it because it was beginning to appear my recommendation was flawed, and so I tried to correct it.

We're supposed to be helping the OP here (which is a lost cause NOW, obviously), but has digressed into an ugly argument. I don't want it to go on, but as it was from the beginning, you keep pushing me. Will you stop now? I'm trying to be nice here. Why provoke me unless you WANTED a reaction? What's your real goal here?


Gary