hey guys, my friend picked up a 62 Buick Special that has been sitting for quite a while. i've been trying to get the motor running and haven't had much luck. i have spark, cleaned the carb, and motor turns freely. right now its sparking at about 10* btdc while cranking with the starter. is this in the ballpark to where it should be firing right? the other problem is compression. #4 & #5 only have about 30 psi. the rest are 120-130 psi. i poured oil into the cylinders and it raised it. so i spent two days spraying kroil and cranking, trying to free up the rings. no bueno... i'm not sure if the two low cylinders are rings or valves. it will run rough for less than a minute if i keep pumping the throttle, kinda makes me wonder if its not fuel related? just looking for ideas, ballpark to set the timing, initial carb adjustments. my other idea is to go to the junkyard and pull a 3.9 land rover engine. these are plentiful and at under $200, cheaper than a rebuild.
Base timing on a '62 215 is 5 degrees. It should run at 10. You didn't say how long "quite a while" is. Is the gas old? With two weak cylinders, the engine will not run smoothly, but it should run. I would also suspect a fuel or mixture issue. A car that has been sitting can have all sorts of vacuum-related issues. Check every hose that has engine vacuum. If the car has power brakes, disconnect the vacuum hose to the brake booster and plug it. If the engine runs noticably better, the booster is leaking or the check valve is FU. There are different interpretations of what "cleaning" a carburetor means. If the car has been sitting for years, I would put a FRESH overhaul kit in it. If the carb. has composite floats, the floats could have become saturated. Some of the pre-1975 floats didn't like the additives that are found in unleaded gas. Be sure that the fuel pump is delivering sufficient volume. The pickup tube "sock" in the tank could be partially plugged. Just a few ideas... good luck!
You've come to the right place for help. These guys know their stuff! Report back, with; how it goes. And, Welcome!
it was last registered in 1980... i got a carb gasket kit, took it apart, cleaned and reasembled. it was remarkably clean inside, i was expecting plugged jets and nasty varnish build up. it has a two barrel, "2 Jet" rochester carb. the only vacume line is between the carb and distributor. there are two small ports, one for each barrel, that lead from below the throttle plates, to outside the carb. i dont see anything that is supposed to go into these holes, and there isn't a nipple for a hose. i plugged these holes since i thought it would just be a huge vacume leak. i've been using a motorcycle gas tank tied up under the hood for fresh fuel supply. i have an old 1964 chilton repair manual that covers alot of different cars. it has a section for the buick special and gives some technical data. it said to turn the air screws out one turn, and throttle screw one turn in when it just starts to touch the fast idle cam. it also says 5*btdc for manual cars, and 7.5*btdc for automatics. this is an auto. got any different initial carb settings? any idea what the two ports on the carb are supposed to go to? (it doesn't have power brakes)
Cool an other 62 specail owner! After tinkering with my 215 now and then, it would develop similar behavior issues like your friends. Tho i never mest around with the mixture or throttle screws, things that made my engine act that way was: 1. Flooded carb. This thing seemed to over flood easy. dont over pump, check to see if your bowl float is bent. It may not be completely shutting off gas supply with a bent float. Make sure the float valve is clean. 2. Choke wont open. This can make the engine start but then bog down to shut off when it starts to warm up. Pumping the gas to try and keep it going will only flood the carb. Check the heat transfer pipe that goes from the manifold to the choke spring housing. Make sure the pipe is not clogged, check inside the spring housing to make sure its clean from any gunk. Make sure the spring is not set to where the choke cover slaps shut hard or is somewhat tuff to open by hand. 3. Spark plug wires all mixed up. Engine will defiantly run ruff or not want to start at all if to many plug wires are not on the right plugs. 4. Clogged fuel filter, fuel lines or pump going bad. Easy to change out the filter. It a little tuffer to clean out the gas line (not really all that tuff at all) 5. Bad dashpot Probably not your issue but my bad dashpot would allow the engine to start and run in idle till i stepped on and off the gas. It would then bog down, run ruff and shut off. These are all things i had to deal with on my 215 which may not be big things to some peeps on hear but to me it was a great (some times scary) learning experience. You dont mention flooding or any over spilling of gas so half of this post may not be your issue. Id check that fuel line tho (from carb all the way to the sending unit)
There's probably a fairly good chance that the fuel pump is also shot. Let me take a few guesses; - The fact that you have to keep feathering the gas implies that changing the engine speeds gets you just enough to keep it sort of alive. You probably had to pour raw gas down the throat just to get it started, and then once the bowls are empty the car sounds like it's just sucking air. With two low cylinders it should run, but it'll run like a toilet. It will not build any kind of power. I'd also suspect that the timing chain is pretty slack too. Any idea why those two cylinders are low? Does it have a head gasket/head problem? Set the ignition up to TDC and try again; - I'm not sure how you can check when the motor fires without a running engine and a timing light. Anything else would be in my guess pure supposition. Disconnect and plug off any other vacuum leads except for the vacuum advance, unless you suspect that it isn't working properly either.
thanks for the list of items to check. ill try and go over what i've done and what i'm not sure about. 1. float is set correctly. initialy after i cleaned the carb, and cranked it over, fuel would pour out of the top vent. i reset float height, and no external, or internal leaks that i can tell. the car is sitting on a semi steep incline, nose facing down, not sure if this is causing problems or not 2. choke mechanism moves freely. it is cable actuated, so i dont think i have the heat transfer pipe. 3. i've gone over the spark plugs about 10 times. i even swapped the plugs wires 180* to rule out the distributor not positioned correctly. 4. the mechanical pump does work, but i've switched to an auxilary gas tank with fresh gas, gravity fed, but should keep the float bowl full enough to idle. 5. i'm not sure what the dashpot is? is that the accelerator pump? if so, its functioning properly. when i've pulled the plugs, they have been pretty wet. probably from all the cranking, pumping of throttle, and not running. i dont think its flooding from a bad float. keep the ideas comming, i'm willing to try anything.
i'm not sure why the two cylinders are low. i put some oil in one cylinder and it went from about 30 psi to about 75 psi. the other cylinder, i accidently dumped a bunch of oil in the cylinder, i cranked it to expell any excess so i wouldn't hydrolock it, and it raised it to about 95 psi. thats why i thought rings. i spent two days periodicaly spraying Kroil (penetrating oil) in all cylinders, and it didn't really bring up the compression in those two, or the other cylinders. i haven't removed the valve covers yet to check for stuck valves, i guess that might be the next thing to check. i set timing by turning the motor to line up the timing mark to tdc. then i turned the dist to open the points to their widest, and set the gap to .016. then cranking, checking with a timing light, it sits at 10*Btdc. the plugs still fire at cranking speed, i can see the timing mark with a light. the vacume advance moves when i suck on the vacume line. its not a fuel supply problem, carb stays full of fuel. it doesn't matter if i dump fuel down the throat, spray starting fluid, or just use the accelerator pump. it does backfire through the carb when i pump the throttle to keep it running rough. but it has never ran longer than 30 seconds.
Okay; Sounds like you're on the right track. It also sounds like you might have a bad vacuum leak, either internally or externally. When you reassembled the carb, were the checkballs reinstalled correctly? If you dumped the ball down the wrong hole the carb will flood out the cylinders. If your oil smells strongly of gas then you are flooding it, this might be one thing you may want to check. If it's the Rochester 2GC carb there is a checkball that has to go under the accelerator pump, - wrongly placed, this will allow gas to free-flow as fast as the pump can put it in. I don't know if you are trying to start the car with full choke. If you are, try it without the choke engaged. If the choke butterfly is badly set (ie too tight or closed) then there is no way it'll get enough air, and the car will flood. If the plugs are wet they will not fire. Once the engine is flooded you have two options; - 1, remove the plugs and dry them out. 2, open the choke manually, floor the gas pedal and crank the motor over; - once it fires, hold it close to flat-out until the engine runs "round". But not too long, otherwise you could blow the motor. If the flooding continues, then I would definitely suspect the carb and go into it again. Next thing to try; get a buddy to start the car and keep it running, and then carefully hold your hands over the carb inlet, if it dies, no vacuum leak, if it takes off, major vacuum leak. Caveat; - if the car is backfiring and sputtering, be careful, you could get burned. Lastly, and I know it's a pain, (and from the sounds of it you've been through it thoroughly already), but you have to eliminate it as a possiblity, check your firing order and when you set the distributor to TDC on the balancer, insure that the valves on the #1 are closed. I'm not sure which bank the #1 is on, whether it's passenger's side or driver's side, so double check with the manual. Once you've eliminated the ignition, and it sounds as if you've done the right things so far, then it has to be a fuel/carb problem. Backfiring through the carb can also be caused by a faulty distributor cap; is it cracked? How old is the one on the car, and, was it properly reinstalled? (ie do the pegs line up and the cap sits squarely on the distributor) How old are the plug wires? Hope this helps...
i dont remember there being a ball under the accelerator pump plunger? there was a small hole with a retainer, spring, and then a ball. i will have to look a little closer down the carb while i'm cranking to make sure no fuel is pouring out. i've tried choke, no choke, covering the intake with my hand, no difference. i'm not sure how old the cap is, but i do know that each sparkplug is firing. plugs and wires are brand new. cap is correctly aligned. about the only thing suggested that i haven't confirmed is that the valves are closed. today if the weather cooperates, i'm gonna pull the valve cover to comfirm #1 TDC, and also that the low compression cylinder valves are moving. i'm starting to think the engine is just worn out from sitting too long.
Two of the things John said are the most important, fuel and vacuum leaks. Take the fuel supply line off the pump and feed it from an old antifreeze bottle(or something) full of fresh gas.
i've been using an auxilary gas tank, motorcycle tank... anyone have a diagram of a rochester 2 jet carb? on the back of the carb, opposite of the air screws, there were two open ports. anyone know what these would go to? i have them plugged right now. the only vacume line going to the carb is from the distributor. the vacume can on the dist holds vacume, and it does move the arm.
If its the right ports im thinking of... thay are left open on my carb. You maybe need the pressure of the fuel pump to supply gas to the carb when needed.. maybe gravity is not enough?
the two ports on my carb are atleast 1/8" diameter, not real small. wouldn't that just create a huge vaume leak?
If you have those ports plugged, they shouldn't be an issue. If you can get it running again, put your hand over the top of the carb and start choking it. If this makes the engine speed up significantly, then you know you are looking at a carb/vacuum leak problem. If it doesn't speed up it doesn't mean you don't have a carb issue but you might have to start looking at other possibilities. I just looked in my shed and all my rochester 2GC's are big bore carbs. If I had a small one I'd send it too you.
A couple of things that you have said bother me a bit. You said it has a cable-operated choke. It has been my experience that these are usually installed to cover up another problem. The automatic choke the car came with should work just fine. I am not real familiar with the 215, but if a manual choke was installed it means that the thermostatic choke isn't getting heat. I would want to find out why. Are heat passages in the intake manifold plugged? Is there a broken or missing heat tube to an exhaust manifold?. Is there a stuck heat riser valve? Second - you said it makes no difference whether your hand is over the carburetor inlet or not. It should make a huge difference. If everything else were perfect, putting your hand over the air inlet of the carburetor should cause the engine to quit. I am thinking a huge vacuum leak. How is the carb. base gasket? Intake manifold gaskets?
well, the motor never ran long enough for me to tell if covering the carb with my hand makes a difference in how it runs. the only time it ran i was busy working the throttle to keep it running. im not sure about the manifold heat. there looks like an open port on the exhaust, not sure if thats part of it. i dont know about the intake manifold gasket, but the carb base gasket is new. i think the plan of action is to throw a junkyard rover engine in it and convert it over to fuel injection.
That open port on the exhaust is part of the automatic choke setup. A brake line runs from that port to the choke spring housing to transfer warm air and adjust the spring to open the choke. Could your issue maybe be bad points?
new set of points, and condensor. i'm an avid aircooled VW fan and ride dirt and street bikes. points, carbs, and engines are not new to me. thats why im getting frustrated when nothing i try works. i just hope you guys dont see it as hacking up a classic putting a newer motor in the car. anything i do to get the fuel injection to work will be reversable, really about the only mod i think ill need to do is drill an extra hole in the tank for a return fuel line.
I can understand your frustration. It's too bad that I (and probably many other members of V8 Buick) couldn't just beam ourselves (star trek style) in there to take a crack at a challenge like this. I'm beginning to think that it isn't carb/vacuum problem. An engine in good tune doesn't even need a carb to run for a second or two. We hade a Chevy with a 350 come in to the shop with a flooding carburetor, and after the carb was removed someone cranked the engine thinking it wouldn't start. Well, with all that gas in the intake manifold, the engine red lined for about two three seconds. It got everyone's attention. If you could find the problem and get it running, the valves and rings in those low cylinders will probably seat themselves. I'd feel better with the original 215 in there.
