It was in 2014. I had to wait for the engine to finish building the car. I didn't complete the car until 2017. That's when I found all of the issues. It now has 9k miles on it.
Here's a couple of pictures when I tore it down at 1k miles. All of the bores had a ridge on the bottom of the cylinder. I could catch my fingernail on all of them. I actually took a file and filed them off before I honed the cylinders. It's hard to see in this picture unless it can be enlarged. You can see the lifter bore girdle is way off. You can see how much the buttons are off. The line on the right is where they are. the line on the left is where it should be. View attachment 628671
Do TA roller rockers need to be set up before installation? I'm just looking at my rockers and cylinder 3 intake is not centered on the valve tip. It's too far back and hanging over the valve slightly. When I put this engine back together, I saw that there was no washer between #1 intake rocker and the spacer. I got the correct washer and installed it. I never thought to check the spacing. By installing the missing washer, it may have moved #3 intake rocker back. I'll check it when I take it apart but this is the spring that broke last year. The springs that are broken now appear to have the rockers centered on the valve.
Where are your springs breaking , real close to the top? A few times I have seen springs break because there was not enough play between the nose of the retainer and the ID of the inner spring. When the motor heats up the retainer nose expands then pushes on the spring exerting a force in a direction it’s not made to handle resulting in busted springs. On one guys motor I look at on a race day even with the motor cool the retainer was press fit into the spring top. I found it hard to believe that with such a condition he only had 5 busted springs, but more troubling is how whoever assembled the heads did not notice such a issue!
Not sure why it has a lifter bore girdle in it to begin with.. considering it's a hyd roller cam, with the same spring pressures as a flat tappet solid would use. If you asked me to do that, I would have flat told you that you don't need that piece of equipment.. that's for big solid rollers with 700 plus pounds of open spring pressure. I would install it (correctly) only if you insisted.. and maybe you did. JW
I insisted. To me, those lifter bores just look weak. Plus I figured it would help with the oil splash since it uses composite intake gaskets. I feel better building something stronger than it needs to be. I like overkill! I just looked in their catalog and it states that a lifter bore girdle is required with a roller cam in a big block. Regardless, I wanted one anyway.
One is broken 2 coils from the top and one is 2 coils from the bottom. I don't recall where the one broke last time.
I believe that if this were mine, I would pull the entire engine apart and start over. Work with Jim, TA, Cody or anyone else that is VERY familiar with this type of build. Don't rely on your neighborhood engine builder to do it properly. There are WAY too many details on a build like yours that need to be paid attention to for the average engine builder to properly execute. The cost will be minimal at this point vs something more catastrophic happening at a later date. If critical issues like this were not properly adhered to while being built the first time, who knows what other issues may be ready to show up at any moment? Properly built and assembled, this 523 should "safely" pull to 6200/6500 rpm. My 523 saw 7K on numerous occasions (even with the rev limiter set at 6500), without issue. FYI.... my 523 was built and dynoed by Mike Phillips/Automotive Machine & Performance...... now retired. Pull it down, go over every detail of the build. Correct any inconsistencies/issue that you find, reassemble and have fun! And don't be afraid of at least 6000/6200 rpm!
When I started this project, I chose not to use a local builder. I thought that I chose the best. To give the builder credit, I didn't fire the engine for 3 years after it was built. For all he knew, I could have raced it for those three years. What really ticked me off was when I called him and explained the problems that I was having and he told me that he recalled that my engine didn't get the threaded oil galley plugs that I requested and he meant to take them off of the bill. That wasn't his decision to make. He should have called me and asked me if it was ok not to install the the threaded plugs. I would have said no. How many Buick engine builders in the last 30 years have not installed threaded galley plugs? He didn't want to have to clean the block again because the engine was assembled already. From what I saw, the block wasn't cleaned properly anyway. When I sold the original pushrods to a V8 member, I showed him the magnet that I took out of the oil pan. He said it looked like honing dust. There was no chunks of metal. The magnet was covered fine black powder. I would have never taken the engine apart if it had the threaded plugs installed. Every bearing had fine scratches from the debris that went through the engine. I wasn't upset about pulling the engine out because I had to change the oil pan because with the one I chose, I only had 3 1/2" of ground clearance. I'm debating now what to do. I'd actually like to start over with a Tomahawk block. More than likely, I'll just try to fix the valve spring issue so I don't drop a valve. I have no other issues with the engine at this time. Until an oil galley plug blows out!
Mike Phillips did my 1st 464, I was new into buicks, the motor lived for thousands of passes, when u took it back with all the paperwork he was surprised as it didn't have the threaded plug behind the cam.......even though I was charged for it and for those passes ages to be enlargered. He did the second time for 0 money. So even with professional ppl familiar with these motors things happen
So, I got a valve height mic and I came up with 1.744 installed height, .126 less than spec sheet. At that height, I have 165 lbs of pressure. My cam lift is .381 x 1.6 ra ratio is .610. 1.744 minus .610 is 1.134, .222 less than spec. At 1.134, open pressure is 400. Specs call for 130@ 1.870 and 370@ 1.356. There are no shims under the springs, just a .045 locator. The only way that I could possibly come up with the correct spring height would be to cut the spring seats deeper or get a valve stretcher. Any suggestions? If my math is correct, 1.040 is coil bind. With an open height of 1.134. there's only .094 clearance before coil bind. Is that enough?
Don't know the answer to your question. Don't quote me on this... Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there's offset keepers that might do what you're looking to do. I think they will let you have a taller installed height on the springs. I believe the taper for the retainer is moved up higher to allow the taller installed height. That would keep you from having to machine the spring pockets deeper.
That may be possible, but that will probably cause rocker clearance issues. Plus, where would you get them. The Buick springs are a small diameter and there's no such retainer in the TA catalog.
A different set of retainers that sat higher would effect sprung install height. On bbc I've have used different locks b4 to be able to adjust also.........were the groove in the lock is in a different location to adjust height up and down by .050
Even if I could get those, .050 isn't enough. I need .126 and even if I could raise the retainers, they would probably interfere with the roller rockers.
Depending on the diameter of the retainer it's not uncommon to need to clearance roller rockers on alot of engines. Sounds like now that you know your installed height you need to set about getting springs to fit within your window
When Jeff stopped over Saturday I had considered mentioning about different locks with the keeper groove located higher, I know the Buick V6 you can do that, but the V8's use a "no groove or step" lock, but like Jeff mentioned, even .060 isnt enough. When Jeff showed me the spec. sheet for his build from TA with the hand written measurements and I saw 1.744 valve height, I said "That sounds like 350 installed height" Im still suspect of TA's machine work and assembly on his heads, I mentioned theres something with the spring pocket not deep enough. the valves are too short, or the valve seat isnt deep enough to use the springs and retainers TA recommends, almost like he has to use 350 springs to attain the specs TA recommends
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Your spring height is .120 off, I'd check valve stem height. If it's off by the same amount then your geometry is going to be out of whack as well..
That 1.744 was the actual measurement that I came up with. Their build sheet shows an installed height of 1.870. It appears that they didn't machine the spring pockets deep enough. I searched online a little bit yesterday and can't find any springs that will work on the Stage 2 heads. I'm going to call them this afternoon.
