who else (OTHER THAN TA) makes a good roller rocker?

I took as, "I know TA makes a good roller, but does anybody else make one that's good?". That's how I saw it. It looked to me like he was acknowledging that TA makes a great rocker, but who else does? I don't think there was any harmful intent here. That's why I said T&D. I know they make TA's rockers but are probably more refined to moderate applications which is what most of us have. In rare exceptions like big inch roller motors, T&D would be more suited. No turf wars were intended, he just wanted info on what else is available. Knowledge, isn't that what this is all about?o No: :beer

I was stunned to know that Harland Sharp made Buick rockers! See ya learn something new here everyday!

 

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what a load of s**t. I said nothing like that. Anything you read that way, it's because you read it that way. I made every intent not to make it personal. The only reason I said specifically not TA was because I knew 99% of the people here would say to use the TA rockers. That was the only reason it was phrased that way.

 

I guess it all comes down to people's interpretations and misinterpretations. I went back to the very beginning and this is what I found:

The title of the thread is
"who else (OTHER THAN TA) makes a good roller rocker?"

To me, this seems to be acknowledgement of TA making a "good roller rocker"

The text of the first message is:
"Just wondering what the other options are."

To me, this sounds like he's gathering info to make his own decision.

Later he wrote:
"I guess I should rephrase that:
I'm not just looking for other manufacturers, but also someone who knows of a good roller rocker from experience, other than TA."

Possibly the "other than TA" phrased as it is in this sentence could lead one to believe that he's looking for all "non-TA" options. But that's not stated and this is likely where the most interpretation was done. Yet at the same time the "other than TA" part, to me, means the same as it did in the thread title.

Or, I could just be completely misinterpreting this thing myself.

 

That was EXACTLY my intent... I'm glad someone could read what I wrote without assuming anything.
Thanks for the recommendation on the T&D, by the way.
I am getting more and more turned off by TA and their attitude. If anyone mentions any other product on this board, they automatically assume it's a slam on their product, or feel the need to use it as a TA ad. If anything, the other vendors around here should feel put off by the way THEY act. I am very sure that I won't be using anything from them that I can get somewhere else.

 

Steve
I do agree that TA makes some of best parts for our beloved Buicks, but if you don't care for their personnel, don't let that stop you from getting the best engineered part for your car. There are other TA dealers around the country. You may find one of those guys that you may like better. You probably more apt to get an unbiased opinion from those guys anyway. I have to admit that Mike seems to put a lot more R&D in the parts he sells. The electric water pump is a good example. I know that they're built by Meziere and that Meziere does carry a Buick 455 pump for less money. But, I didn't know that that the pumps made for TA have different clearances that won't interfere with belt geometry. The rockers are T&D but are built differently to be more compatible for the common Buick head. That way no modifications are necessary. And it's priced so the common Buick hot rodder can bolt on and go. Not so with the T&D's. Don't close the door on a good part because you don't like the salesman, try thru a different salesman. There are several here on the forum.:beer

 

There's no doubt that TA offers a great product... I'm just not so sold on their marketing tactics as of late. There is no doubt that some of their products are the best on the market, and I understand what you are saying. I give them all the respect in the world for their developement and R&D of their products.
I think they may be a little on the defensive lately because there is finally some real competition coming for them from Bulldog, and some of the other smaller startups.
Any problems I have with them are my problems, and I don't believe in bringing those type of things up on a public forum, unless there is absolutely no chance of resolution from the particular person I have the problem with.
Anyway, you're probably right. I will probably buy the rest of what I need through finishline motorsports (I think they are a TA dealer). I have found them to be great to deal with, and very helpful.

 

wow.......I think this thread drifted off course in a BIG way.....

 

There were only two people who knew the background that brought up this thread, Steve and Myself. Steve kept it neutral and I thought I did also. The reason why I posted TA's point of view was because the route that the responses were going. It started to go to higher end systems, and then to other non-Buick vendor systems. All I tried to prevent was the impression that there was a problem with TA's roller rockers.

This board is about exchanging knowledge. I always post TA's point of view with as little salesmanship as possible. But my job and TA's is to produce and sell engine parts for Buicks. The more we sell the better for everyone, believe me. TA does not pressure for sales, I talk to people all day long on the phone and it's not easy when you here someone say, I got this from Summit and this from Jegs but I went to put it in it didn't fit, so could you tell me how to make it work?

I think most people appreciate the information, because there is a TA difference on many parts, that on the surface looks like the same thing others are offering.

Dave

 

EVERYTHING I have gotten from TA fit! Period!

 

I agree. Everything that I've gotten fits/works great. I don't think anyone was saying TA's rockers have any problems, only when modified for clearance in some situations. But that can be said about anything that's modified. You're flirting with disaster. Dave I think maybe you read too far into that. I've read it several times and still don't see the harm in anything that was posted. Things I hear won't stop me from buying unless the part is garbage and has a history of being just that. I think it's pretty obvious that TA's line is well engineered. Quality is not an issue with TA products. So lets just let it go at that.

 

Any other experiences with the Harland Sharps? They made me a set w/ the bronze bushings, but I haven't put em on yet.
I'm still in the building stages; the cam is .550 lift.


Thanks,
Steve Walsh

 

Have both Harland Sharp and TA rockers in the building..

Buy TA, regardless of who you buy them thru.


I read in another thread that you wanted the best, and in that price range and application.. they are it. No question.

JW

 

Damn Gary what happened?ou: Some people need to chill out a bit. :af: I thought this was just a simple helping question and answer for particular engine applications, not a "who's better than who?".

Geez and I thought this was a long winter. Now I know why people PM answers instead of posting them.

Rick Martinez

 

I guess they don't sell beer and Crown Royal in all parts of the country!:laugh: :beer :3gears:

 

you guys don't know the background and what might have been implied, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. Something did happen this past week with an order I had at TA, and let's leave it at that. They didn't do anything wrong, but I decided to seek other options since the order was cancelled at the time. I didn't think it was a big deal, and my post was not intended as an offhand smack at TA, but I think Mike might have taken it that way. If anything, I had a chance to re-think my options. That's all... no harm intended. I hope their is no bad feelings here.

 

Who makes good rocker???

Hey Guys,


I would like to shed some rocker arm background to this thread. I have had T/A, Postons, Harland Sharps and Jesel individual shafts on my engines. Also, since Gary Kubisch and I always share information I have seen his T&D individual shaft rockers.

I am going to try and make this post POSITIVE.

INDIVIDUAL SHAFT: There are many companies offering the individual shaft rockers. T/A sells them, T&D, Jesel, Harland Sharp and others. By far the individual shaft rockers are far superior to any of the stock style rockers. The individual shaft rockers are much more costly and machine work has to be done to install these rockers. So... they are better why??? These rockers use smaller diameter shafts and bearings which will allow us to run a larger diameter spring but since the bearing is smaller the body of the rocker arm can still have some mass to it therefore remains strong.

Why do we need a larger spring? When running more aggressive camshafts it is neccesary to run more seat and open pressure. You can get this out of a smaller diameter spring but it will simply not last as long. So... if you have the cash... go for the individual shaft style rockers.

OEM STYLE SINGLE SHAFT ROLLERS:

The rocker arm body: When looking at these rocker arms you must think about the strength of the body. The area where the body of the rocker arm surrounds the spring is usually where they will break if they are not a quality rocker arm.

Years back the bodies of these rocker arms were machined straight through with the same size cutter to fit the bearings. This was fine untill engine builders started running more spring pressures which would cause the bodies to fail. So.... Some of the manufacturers started to counter bore from both sides of the rocker arm body to fit the bearing. This procedure leaves the extra material in the center of the rocker arm body and therefore the rocker arms are now stronger. I am not sure but thus far I have only seen the T/As and Harland Sharps like this.

So... which are better? They are both great pieces. Hey Jim... if you don't want those Harland Sharps I will give you $150 for all of the bodies!!!

Here is my issue with the T/As and Harland Sharp rockers. The COST. $600 plus for rockers arms is crazy. You can buy a decent pair of Chevy or Pontiacs for less than $300.

Now... before I get lambasted here let me say this. I don't bitch unless I have an idea. Where I am employed we have to figure out ways to reduce costs everyday. And usually we get told to do this twice a day or more.

So.... Since it is the cost of the ODD BALL bearings in these rocker arms that raises the price why not just change the bearing?? The diameter of the rocker arm shaft is .812. This bearing is very costly because of its odd ball size. SOOOOO.... Why not change the shaft diameter to .750 which will allow us to use a more common bearing and then just use a spacer kit to mount the .750 rocker shaft to a .810 pedestal?

Hope this helps

 

I think the only worry I would have with reducing the shaft diameter would be,With only 4 attching points it would seem you mat compromise some strength,BUT......With the quality of materials available,Along with the relatively low RPM operation in which these systems see,I think that would be a great idea to somewhat reduce cost.

 

Re: Who makes good rocker???

John, and others.

One small thought added to the cost factor. We tend to compare Chevy aka "Summit" prices to the price of Buick parts sold by various "Buick" vendors. My thought on this and possibly yours (dealing with ways to lower prices) is that there are about 10 or more Chevy racers to every one Buick racer. So taking into the account of all the cost of R&D a company that sells Chevy parts can sell for a cheaper price and easily re-coup their investment make a profit (hell its a business & deserves that) and also extra monies to re-invest in more R&D for more easily selling Chevy parts.

Example: Kenne Bell. For years a Buick frontier racer, R&D, sold parts made "little" because of the small demand for Buick racing parts. Hence he switched over to a more lucrative Ford and chyrsler market.

First off you guys that know me, I do not hold a candle for any particular vendor. All I ask is to be given a fair shake and I do understand their side of things also. I pay my money and expect the service or quality part that I was told.

But (and I'M NOT PICKING ON TA) take the aluminum block issues and the cast block issues. Everyone under the Buick sun says they want to buy one. But when the pudding is out only a few buck up. So what happens to these expensive items sitting on the shelves? This is why the blocks regardless of which one will most likely be only a small limited run. PERIOD. Once the stock is gone it may take years to have more made up. Why so few? Well how many Buick racers out there are there? Not many that will buck up for big bucks.

Take the other ventures such as the tail lights lenses the overflow tanks even Garrison has made a few hard to find items. Yet they are all selling slowly. Why? The supply is good but the demand is bad. Translate that into a Chevy part and they will be flying off the shelves.

So to recoup the R&D, marketing etc. a vendor already knowing his market is small MUST call for a higher price for the item. Otherwise he will do something like Kenne Bell has done...leave the Buick business. Or go entirely out of business.

Last note and I have often discussed this with Doug Hecker at length. The bottom line is, if you cannot afford the higher prices of Buick racing parts, maybe that person should re-think their goals. Comparing Chevy parts & prices to Buick is like comparing apples to oranges. We talked on how cheaper it would be if we just raced Chevies. But we love our Buicks so we suck it up and accept all the pitfalls that come with racing Buicks. We listen to advise, share it, like yourself and Gary and others. And we all learn from each other, we find alternate methods, when a direct method is just not there (example, machining Buick heads to accept Chevy rockers.) We have too, because we are in a market that is extremely small.

Sure TA may be considered high in price, it is a free market and competition is good and he knows that. He knows if a part is not available the customer will seek other avenues. Shop around yes that's smart, but always remember cheaper is not always better. And believe me I can show you my empty jar of vaseline that I have from trying to do things cheaper. And it's happening again as I speak, but that is an entirely different and private story and being older, I now have become wiser on handling this.

So on closing this long winded bag of poop I am writing. (Am I pissed, yes) Why, because this thread started as a simple non flaming question and answer and turned into a garbage thread.

Sorry for the rant, just read the rest of these comment and it caught me at a bad time. Had to vent.

Rick Martinez

 

Hey Rick,

Sorry to have set you off with my comments on the cost of our rocker arm systems. I certainly never implied that any of our parts suppliers were gouging us.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here... But there are 16 rocker arms on our V8 engines with 2 bearings each. So.... 32 total bearings. These bearings are anywhere from 5 to 10 dollars each depending on the amount of quanity you have to buy. Its only because they are ODD BALL bearings. So.... why not look into a bearing that isn't an odd ball size that will cost $2 each.

Simple math... 32x$5 = $160.... 32x$10= 320... 32x$2= $64. Now... any manufacturer has an extra $100 profit margain to play with. Part of this could be passed on to the consumer and the other part can be kept in house.

When I compared the cost of a Chevy or a Pontiac rocker arm to our Buicks, yes I looked in the Summit catalog for pricing. I will still reference this catalog and even throw in the cost of a 455 Oldsmobile rocker that is $219.95 for a set of 16. I seriously doubt that the Olds crowd is buying double or triple the amount of roller rockers than the Buick crowd. We do have the extra cost of the shafts but you can purchase replacement shafts from T&D are about $80 each.

Again Rick... sorry to have set you off but I thought I stated what to look for in a good rocker arm and why. And I thought I had given someone or anyone an idea on how to save us all some $$$.

Sorry Again