You guys have been great so far and kept me out of trouble re this car I think I may buy and restore. I have verified with Sloan as a true 1970 Stage One Buick. Problem is the engine is a rebuilt (200 miles ago)1973 455 (no build sheet available so far) and per Sloan not a GS or Stage One. The car needs a complete interior, I have the front buckets but no rear seat. All needs Year One recovering, foam, etc. and door panels and all rear panels. Headliner is ok. Dash instruments have been restored but needs a dash pad to finish. Chrome bumpers are good but most window chrome is missing. The body is ok but the paint job is only fair and needs to be buffed or repainted for perfection. No bondo. The trunk pan is new but poorly installed over the old pan and the floor pan has a driver side patch about 5 sq. in. It needs a grill,taillights and a lot of paint and detail work that I can do myself. Surface rust underneath with no damage. It has new h.d. radiator, new a/c & condensor/receiver, new ignition system, new front windshield glass, wheels, tires and brakes.Trans is a floor shift turbo 400 and has a 10 bolt posi rear. I just put a new 4 bbl on it as I thought the deal was done and then my detective work found out about the motor. Guy wanted $11,000 based on a non numbers matching Stage One engine and true Stage One car. What would be a fair price considering I have to pay $750. labor now to finish dash installation, no Stage One engine plus about, I would guess, $4-7000 to finish, minus paint. This is making my head hurt but I think I could have a great car after it is done. Thanks, Gary the newbie
To flynbuick re What's it worth I dont really know what the engine has in terms of a distributor but will check the dist. number when I see the car next week. I bought a new Rochester 750cfm Q jet with electric choke for the engine as it had the wrong carb on it and the choke would not work. Couldn't keep it running. This could be returned to Summit if need be but it works really well and will fit the ram air air cleaner. You can see pics and a fairly accurate write up on the car on eBay. I think they are still there if you enter 190044389752 into the advanced search feature of the "Cars for Sale" on the top of that page. The bidding has expired but you should still be able to open it up. If not, please send me your e-mail and I'll try to send it to you direct using the email to a friend feature. Thanks, Gary
I see it. Two questions come to mind: Why and when was the VIN tag defaced? ( It is an issue you will have to deal with if you buy and later try to sell) What would a close inspection of the floors, frame and other sheet metal reveal? (The trunk pan situation was a lot worse than he admits before the repair such as it is was performed) I would want to see the floor pans to confirm what he says and look at the inner and outer wheel houses, back of the quarters, back side of the fenders and the bottoms of the doors. This may require an in person inspection by someone who is sharpe on body repairs. I would be cautious because what he said about the SS being on the block before it was decked clearly could not have been correct unless someone other than the factory put it there.
flynbuick What's it worth? I'm going to put the car up on a lift next week to check all numbers and markings. At that time I will check the frame, trunk and floor pans thoroughly. As there are no seats in the car, I can pull the floor carpeting out completely. I will bring my trusty flashlite and a magnet to check the body, fender wells, quarters, door sills, etc. and do a good visual. I don't think he's trying to hide anything as per the photos on eBay. His remark about the ss on the block was either bull, something he read on a web site or he was told this by an owner trying to bs a buyer or the mechanic. I sound like I'm defending him but I am being very cautious now and checking what he has said for myself. Basically I think the guy selling the car for the owner is being honest. This is a consignment deal. I have yet to meet the owner. Seller said all the right things about the car in the ad but had no real proof such as the Sloan report to base this on. He obviously read a few Buick web sites, looked the car over and wrote his ad. He did give the engine vin so nothing was really hidden there. He said he should have ordered the Sloans before he did the ad. The vin on the dash has the 44637 defaced but those numbers do appear on the cowl plate which looks original. I can just about make out the first 4 and the 7 on the dash plate photo. Where else might I find these numbers? If the first 5 numbers changed could this be a totally different car, maybe a Skylark? I am going to use a paint remover with a q-tip to see if I can take some of the paint off the dash vin and see if it's readable. I think between the two plates I have the full vin and it is on the original bill of sale. Who knows what happened or when over the last 35 years. What would be hidden by this? A totally fake car with a ton of parts replaced to make it look like a stage one? I did make him aware that vin fraud is a federal offense and he didn't flinch. The car did sit outside for a time in the rain without a windshield and thus the pan and upholstery damage. It appears a lot is done by unscrupulous people to disquise these cars based on the questions I see on this site and the difficulty folks have identifying what they have really bought but the car itself does appear to be a Stage One. I know you are reluctant to give me a figure but assuming the body/rust situation is not a problem, I see the bill of sale and considering the engine situation, what would be the range I might consider as a reasonable offer? I can still walk away from this deal and know it is "buyer beware!". Thanks, Gary
flynbuick What's it worth? I'm going to put the car up on a lift next week to check all numbers and markings. At that time I will check the frame, trunk and floor pans thoroughly. As there are no seats in the car, I can pull the floor carpeting out completely. I will bring my trusty flashlite and a magnet to check the body, fender wells, quarters, door sills, etc. and do a good visual. I don't think he's trying to hide anything as per the photos on eBay. His remark about the ss on the block was either bull, something he read on a web site or he was told this by an owner trying to bs a buyer or the mechanic. I sound like I'm defending him but I am being very cautious now and checking what he has said for myself. Basically I think the guy selling the car for the owner is being honest. This is a consignment deal. I have yet to meet the owner. Seller said all the right things about the car in the ad but had no real proof such as the Sloan report to base this on. He obviously read a few Buick web sites, looked the car over and wrote his ad. He did give the engine vin so nothing was really hidden there. He said he should have ordered the Sloans before he did the ad. The vin on the dash has the 44637 defaced but those numbers do appear on the cowl plate which looks original. I can just about make out the first 4 and the 7 on the dash plate photo. Where else might I find these numbers? I am going to use a paint remover with a q-tip to see if I can take some of the paint off the dash vin and see if it's readable. I think between the two plates I have the full vin and it is on the original bill of sale. Who knows what happened or when over the last 35 years. What would be hidden by this? A totally fake car with a ton of parts replaced to make it look like a stage one? I did make him aware that vin fraud is a federal offense and he didn't flinch. The car did sit outside for a time in the rain without a windshield and thus the pan and upholstery damage. It appears a lot is done by unscrupulous people to disquise these cars based on the questions I see on this site and the difficulty folks have identifying what they have really bought but the car itself does appear to be a Stage One. I know you are reluctant to give me a figure but assuming the body/rust situation is not a problem, I see the bill of sale and considering the engine situation, what would be the range I might consider as a reasonable offer? I can still walk away from this deal and know it is "buyer beware!". Thanks, Gary
Gary - Ask to see the Sloan documentation. Compare the documentation with the options you see on this car - particularly the Fisher Body number. It is not normal to have a defaced VIN tag.
70 Gary, You are headed in the right direction, get your flashlite out and look in every possible place you can look for rust or body panel replacement. Is the dash vin tag actually defaced or is it corroded from sitting out in the rain with no windshield, looks pretty crusty. Like you said-buyer beware. With the windshield being out pay particular attention to the cowl-firewall area. Take the vent out on the rear quarters where the door latches and look in there with your flashlite for rust or signs of repairs. IMHO if this is a true stage 1 car he is asking plenty because of the rust issues. Does the trans match the VIN? On drivers side of trans above the pan lip the vin will be stamped in the case of the trans. If it is a BB trans and the vin matches that is one more piece to the puzzle. Let us know what you discover on the lift. :TU:
Above is correct. The BB trans very important if it matches the rest of the VIN. If not no good way to tell what this car was if the VIN messed with.
Marco/MIke What's It Worth? Sorry for my long winded explanations! Thanks, Marco. I ordered the Sloan doc's on the car and engine. With the car vin, if accurate, car is a Stage One and engine is not. Where will I find the Fisher Body number? Is that the metal plate on the cowl? Is mine in the correct location per eBay photos? Hard to tell. Thanks,Mike, for getting involved in my personal nightmare. I hear you all loud and clear about the dash vin problem. I have never had so much trouble identifying a car. My gut says walk away unless I can clean the dash vin enough to read it or find a completel vin if it is displayed anywhere else on the car? Does anyone know if it is? Thanks again! Gary
Copperheadgs1 Thanks, I'll check the trans, rust and try to clean up the vin. If numbers can't be read or are not a match, I'm going to walk away from this deal. Gary
Hi Gary - The VIN is stamped on top of the frame is well, behind the drivers door. It's almost impossible to see with the body on. To determine value, you first need to know exactly what you have.
Marco What's it worth Finally, thank you. The seller and I have been like cats circling each other on this deal. He'll probably tell me to put it where the sun don't shine at this point but at last we can get to the bottom of this deal which has had more twists and turns than a bad boy scout knot! I'll let you guys know what happens. Either way I'm going to be a 455 buick owner soon. Gary
Marco, you have to replace that "almost" to "is" impossible to see unless maybe you could get an inspection mirror up there and shine a flashlight on it.
