Water pump questions

My water pump started to leak on my 455 1970 and when removing it I also discovered that the bearings are about to go. This coincided with installing a new 15 PSI cap so I figure maybe a proper system pressure revealed some weaknesses. Very happy to discover this before the season had started. Anyways,

1. One of the longer bolts for the water pump that also holds the timing chain cover snapped off at the middle, inside the timing chain cover. Maybe, maybe I could weld onto it and try to pull it out. But not at all thrilled about the idea of welding at this location. The proper solution then would be to remove the timing chain cover. But as far as I can tell that would be a lot of work and I have no other business underneath there anyway. So I am considering plugging the holes with set screws and run with a bolt less. To big of a risk? Biggest risk I see is that the coolant passages to the block would start to leak inwards the engine.
   
2. Is it worth rebuilding the water pump? It looks like it could be an OEM pump, it seems to be made in the USA at least. However the manual claims this pump cannot be rebuilt so I suppose the parts on it might not be easy to find off the shelf.
   
3. Would you use a gasket or RTV for the water pump?

 

Great info there on the pump dimensions. What would you recommend for a thread sealer? I guess some liquid compound that also protects against corrosion would be nice.
There is just so much work... Could I do it without taking the front off? It looks quiet a bit awkward to get the harmonic balancer and everything off with the engine still in.

If I do it what should check and replace while at it? I guess at least the front end seal is a given. Something in the oil pump?

 

Timing cover has to come off to get that bolt. It may seem like a lot of work but its not so bad.

 

Well oh well... I guess I might have to just brace myself and do it. I just fear that I might even run into worse problems. How much of a gamble is it to leave one bolt out versus this increased risk... The bolt has likely snapped flush to the block meaning my only decent chance here is to weld on a nut to it. Not thrilled about that. And more bolts might break, and what not. Would it pay off to take the engine out to do this job? Never took this kind of engine out.

I found this awesome video series on how to go about rebuilding a 455 btw:

 

I've done it in the car. I would take the cover off with the pump on and deal with the pump on a bench. You should be able to get the bolt out on the block without too much trouble.
Get a new.bolt set from Todd (Stage Won) or TA before you begin. Larry has a good thread on this he did a couple years ago. I'll link it if I can find it.

 

That's the thread. Thanks.

 

Would probably buy one of those if the international shipping time wouldn't disable me from attending the first spring cruises. But new bolts are certainly needed.

Now the timing chain cover is off. Real badass trick using a breaker bar like that. I did go at it with a pneumatic impact gun several times and the bolt wouldn't even flinch. The breaker bar and starter trick loosened it directly. A bit worried about how to get the torque right on this later, but lets defer that until then.

All long bolts through the water pump were quiet rusty, will try to get stainless bolts. The bolt that snapped actually broke about 1 cm from the block so should be fairly straightforward to weld on a nut and get it out. I don't think it will be cooperative without heat anyway.

When the timing chain is tightened up on one side, it can deflect a total 15 m.m. (0.6") on the other side, laterally. From my general experience on chains it looks far too slack and most information on similar engines around the web seem to state a limit of 12 m.m. deflection. So I guess that a new timing chain or set it is.

The oil pump then, should I bother with it? The shaft feels nice and tight. Just unsure if some aftermarket parts would make it better then it is.

 

Stainless is more brittle than mild steel. I wouldn't go that way for those bolts as you don't need more clamping force, and stainless is harder to drill out if you need too.

I have also dealt with this in the car, including drilling broken bolts out.

MAKE SURE TO PRIME the oil pump when you put it back together.

 

I wouldn't have used the word "brittle". Most stainless steel bolts are just plain weak--about the equivalent of Grade 2 mild-steel bolts for tensile strength. Total garbage except as ornamentation.

It's not difficult, but you'd have to make an effort to find Stainless bolts that are almost but not quite the equivalent to Grade 5 hardware. You'd end up with LESS clamping force than using Grade 5 bolts.

It's possible to find Stainless bolts that are in the Grade 8 tensile strength category, but you won't find 'em in a local hardware store, and probably not on eBay. Grainger (or McMaster-Carr?) has 'em, and ARP also has strong stainless bolts.

When this is me--perhaps this summer--I'll use regular-steel bolts in Grade 5 or perhaps Grade 8; with the threads coated in the Loctite/Permatex 592 thread sealer previously linked-to (FABULOUS stuff!) and the bolt shanks painted with aluminum anti-seize so they don't corrode to the aluminum timing cover.

 

I should get one of those liquid thread sealers and aluminum anti-seize. Also spoke so someone else yesterday who really liked the aluminum anti seize.

Sure stainless steel is not as strong as carbon steel in general. But there are many bolts on that cover and it is pressurized just to max 20 PSI. But well, should probably rather estimate the bolt tension. I was about to order part but got a bit unsure about if I should get a whole kit with sprockets or just the chain. I understand there is a risk you have to degree the valves with some kits? But then I think the current sprockets look a bit odd, like they are from different manufacturers? The small sprocket has much smaller teeth. In my world, same chain should imply equal teeth. It seems that the chain rides quiet hide on the large sprocket which I find a bit odd.

 

Buy the chain WITH gears.

 

Aha, well, with this many brands it can be hard to get the right combination I suppose. Bought an oil pump repair kit, a water pump, gasket set, a timing chain kit and bolts today. Timing chain kits are not very expensive considering what we get for the buck I think.

Sand blasted some parts and painted while waiting for my orders to arrive. I did powder coat the belt pulley and bracket for the alternator, will try to get a picture of that another day. First time I tried powder coating, must say I really dig it. The harmonic had some rubber sandwiched into it so I did not dare to run that in the oven though. Will paint it with something else another day.

 

Whatever the radiator cap pressure is--16 psi or close--plus whatever pressure the pump puts out especially with the thermostat closed so the pump is nearly "dead-heading".

WAY more than 20 psi if the RPM is higher.

Ought to degree the cam anyway.

Lotsa guys install timing sets without degreeing the cam, but then they're never certain if the engine runs goofy afterwards--was it the cam timing, or was it something else? And then they have to estimate cam timing by looking at the valves when the #1 cylinder is at TDC-overlap. Even that isn't fabulously accurate with hydraulic lifters that can bleed-down.

 

I spray around the water ports on the block and timing cover with electrical insulating varnish. This shuts down the electrolysis process that causes those pits around the ports where iron meets aluminum. It's also a good idea to spray the inside of the holes where the long bolts go and the bolts themselves. https://www.ebay.com/itm/125645768085?hash=item1d41124595:g:YykAAOxyOypSWx3F&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAsBySr8yrCPykosR1Lxqotd1tq7sCIT2w9C+/bD/xyL9v6RMGsGKWiAIdoWFKKDdITN5c9lquExHoJjJ7ciPwNmz+HTt4dC/bZl8y4y7vViK7Aoq6vcObbSTNbzSZDLtvwzc5LmI/MVSGYHgOkkEtnDYj4IaXRWSntYv+nHInkG7MUQ/Qzm4PpLgdnKDMmUUWGn3iY/zP1GH7tnT049yxqsAKiCN4tBYVUW3mTuftN9ob|tkp:Bk9SR5zi0r7YYQ

They also make sealant that is specifically for water pumps: https://www.ebay.com/itm/324817466178?epid=2283125162&hash=item4ba0a13342:g:ypgAAOSwsO9hXJSF&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAA4Lo05Ol5iKEDVEaX7viTToHQI/fvfvZNTbj0cgrpl1OA7N1SRsC6+bJ+ewQfwtMG6L8I8qTL+STGkTTwu6OhnNeTFgZUxjx3CnImAghHpycLZ8qn2r/ch8pC6Ba0WoJIws4mo+D879gZkM3rLMkHAh4S98GGRE2RnHL0GcjLdkkj/g6r2G2Cnc61LTOcFsqQm4O/SoaFoRSG9Am7zkPNi7NHMz1p1sn510ibYa8+6p9YbBh6BRkqyHOCcHV+1NvNHLrC3gA9nHb7w2z9wuUYgNnFK9zIj1xks89LsYgF+3oN|tkp:BFBM7vXTv9hh

Also, check the height of the oil pump gears, they should be .003" to .006" above the gasket surface.

 

Good point, I overlooked the pump pressure. I did not find stainless bolt at a reasonable price anyway so I ordered grade 8 bolts in the end.

Well I guess it would be nice to have the information at hand so I don't run around trying to fine adjust the carb and ignition all season with no result. I had the intake off last week so I won't pop that again. Is there a check of value I could do underneath the valve covers?

That is a neat trick! I have some pitting and it would be nice to put a stop to it.

 

Don't think I would use grade 8 bolts for a timing cover. If there was a problem later on, those bolts are quite hard to drill.

 

That is an aspect as well.

Anyone who dropped the oil pan on an Electra 1970 with the engine still in? I am considering doing that and getting it cleaned. A bit worried I'll end up in some situation where I don't get it off fully, rip the gasket and cannot get it sealed again. I would want to use just RTV for a gasket, but not sure if I could get the pan in there without smudging it all over the place. I see the cork gasket begin rotted out on both the transmission as well the oil pan so it is a material I don't have a lot of confidence in anymore.

 

Throw out any tubes of RTV you have
On a cork and rubber gasket I use Indian Head Gasket shellac.
RTV doesn’t stick to iron/steel