I'd like to get some opinions on VIN number swaps. I have two skylarks in my possession a 70 parts car and a 72 that i've been working on. I have more documentation on the 70 such as build sheets owners warranty card, the tire data sheet etc. Both cars have matching VIN's and engine blocks and both are in my possession with ownerships. Whats the thoughts on swapping the 70 vin onto the 72 and registering it as such? Don't flame me, i'm just looking for opinions. Scourge
Don't quote me on this, but I think it's a Federal offense. You're talking true Skylarks, right? Not a GS, either one?
I don't see how you could have "matching" VINs for both years.. Even if you were lucky enough to have the same model number, production number and plant code (damn unlikely imo), you still have the year code that would be different. Plus! The ID plate on the cowl would also reflect the year difference. It's illegal as far as I know, plus would be a downright shame, if not a hangable offence to the Buick/Classic car community. my rubles worth
Beyond the legal issues. First of all 1970 bodies are different from 1971-72 bodies, as are the frames. Many people have re-bodied cars over the years due to rust, collision, etc. Many more have clipped cars. When you clip a car you are basically piecing the existing dash and firewall into another shell. This retains the vin numbers and if a date coded shell is used it is virtually indistinguishable from the original body. Think about it, if you replace quarters,wheel houses, doors, floor sections, and a trunk what is left from the original body, basically the roof and firewall. Another thing to consider is that bodies are produced differently at different plants. For 70-72 cars I can tell the difference between bodies produced at Framingham and Flint, or Fremont, etc. As far as bodies some do not have vin Numbers stamped into them, like frames and engines do. So if a body is date coded correctly you may never know if it is original. I myself would have no problem purchasing a car if it was clipped or rebodied as long as the owner was honest and told me. If the body was correctly dated and the rest was numbers matching it still is a valuable car. What I disagree on is when someone tries to fake a car. Like when someone tries to make a non-stage into a Stage 1, or a GS into a GSX. I have no problem with someone trying to bring a car back to its original condition. I hope this helps answer some questions. Duane
Duane, Could you enlighten the rest of us (who don't know that is) how the bodies are different from '70 to '71-'72, as is the frames? Also, I'd really enjoying knowing how to tell a Flint car by looking from a Framingham or Fremont car. What's the differences? I'll stay out of the rest of the topic for now. Thanks
Swapping Vin's Hey Duane, Are saying as long as everything is up front,it would be OK with you to take a skylark body shell and set it on the frame of say a `72 Stage1 that a tree fell across.......then swap in the `72 Stage1 Vin tag in place of the skylark vin tag? In my opinion this would be about the only way to save the damaged Stage1 car. Any one else have any opinions? Regards,Jeff
John, 1971-72 bodies have a Gas vapor canister assembly that sticks up through the trunk just behind the rear seat, 70 cars do not have this. There are also other differences, but they are more subtle. The frames have different Code numbers and are different where the brake proportioning valve mounts. As far as the differences between production plant bodies, I am not going to discuss that. It is too involved and is one of the things I use to identify "Faked" cars. Duane
Duane, Who's John? Or did you switch the names in the windows while writting a Dear John letter? :spank: :gt: Hmm, a vapor can assembly that sticks up huh? Is it hidden by chance as I, in all the times I've been in the trunk (sometimes literally), I've never seen anything but a floorpan. There is a vapor can upfront in the engine bay tho. I can see why you wouldn't go into it about the plant differences, but may I ask, what are the things you'd note about a Fremont car? Thanks!
Sorry about the "John" I meant to write Scott. At the time I was talking on the phone to another Buick Nut. Fremont cars use different nuts and bolts, engines, air cleaners, etc. then Flint cars. It all depends on the year and when it was built. They also use some different manufacturers in producing the same parts. It is something that takes time to research and I cannot explain the differences off the top of my head. Duane
Jeff, I am not saying it is okay to re-body your car. There are a few GSX's that were rebodied with incorrect date-coded shells and now have issues. I am saying that many people in the past have clipped cars, by using the original firewalls and have grafted major body panels onto it to save their vehicles. Quite a few of the restored cars you see at shows were rebuilt this way. Where people get into trouble is when they sell these cars as original and then get caught selling cars that had major repairs. Each car is different and would have to be evaluated. Bodyshops replace major components all the time without changing vin numbers or needing to retitle cars as "Reconstructed". What I am saying is it is okay to replace sections and still have a valuable vehicle. If you have questions talk to a body shop, they are more knowledgable then I in regards to the "Legal Issues" involved. I stated that "I" would have no problem purchasing a car if it was clipped or rebodied as long as the owner was honest and told me, that does not mean that other people would not have a problem with it. Send me some pictures of your car and we can discuss it. Duane
tricky Gotta agree with Duane - honesty is the best policy when valuing a car. My only comment is that the car in question is in Canada, so make sure you check the legal issue in BOTH the US and Canada, in case you ever want to sell it south of the border.... :bglasses: - Bill
True enough about the vapour canister on the 70 and 71/72. If you take the rear seat back out of the rear you'll see it sitting there. As for the two cars in question that I was referring to. Both are flint skylarks, nothing more. I'm trying to fake a GS or other than bolting on the hood and cowl induction. As for matching numbers, what I meant is I have two seperate cars with engines that match the chassis. Both cars have matching vin plates and body plates for their respective years. But I have more documentation for the 70 than the 72. I couldn't salvage the build sheet on the 72 because of underbody oiling soaking into the sheet on top of the gas tank, but the one on the 70 was in pristine condition. I guess in the long run it doesn't make a difference to me if the chassis stays 72 I just curious about others opinion. Scourge and yes its illeagal in Canada also, but who hasn't done something illeagal before.
vin graft guys: in canada it is a fraud & illegal to graft a vin# from one vehicle to another ! chances of getting caught on an old vehicle are slim unless the purchaser is intelligent enough to detect the fraud . ontario is one province that has of yet not forced insurance companies or owners of totalled vehicles to remove the vin plate and forward it to the minister of transportation . the crooks(mob) are purchasing late model wrecks (jeeps, mercedes, lexus,...) in order to take the vin plate from the wreck and replace the vin on a similar stolen vehicle . they then resell the stolen vehicle to an unsuspecting purchaser at a cheap price . fortunately in modern cars the vins are stamped in many different and hidden locations on a vehicle. this allows police to identify stolen vehicles more easily . i work for a police service . gerry 72 gs 350
So from what i understand you have two original number matching cars of different year and you want to ruin both by playing with vin tags just for lousey paper work. Don't get me wrong having original paper work is awsome but I'd rather have the original car. Plus it won't be the correct paper work cause you will have made a frankenstein. Not trying to flame you just giving my opinion which is a strong one p This is just the kind of auto butchery that i see go on all the time and it really upsets me
