TA 413 Cam

*********UPDATE**************

With the headers uncapped it still lays over.

Swapped carbs and it still lays over.

Next up is a trans/converter swap.

This isn't fun any more.

 

I can't remember now -- did you try solid lifters?

 

It will be once you get it all sorted out....:TU:

 

Nope. I don't know anybody with a 413 cam running hydraulics that has this problem. I know people with hotter cams running hydraulics that don't have this problem. I would believe trans problems before lifter collapse/pump up because I can run this car for a few blasts before it begins nosing over. It also did 10 dyno pulls without ever nosing over.

I have always felt it was a problem with one of the systems in my particular car, so we'll see what a trans swap will do. I have a free loaner trans/converter. All it will cost me is trans fluid.

 

Odd thing was, today I had to do probably 8 or so blasts to get it to start laying over.

 

Bring it up to Erie. I can find that infamous bug for you. Then we can strap it down on the chassy dyno and see what's going on. Look into the distributor closer. Thought my stock appearing car's distributor was great at a few quick looks. Heck the car passes pure stock drags tech and I could go 115 mph in a 3997 lb car. Found out why it would run to shift Rpm's of 6200 in first and second but didn't pull hard on the top like the cam change was showing it should. Found the distributor was not retarding as set from 36 to 32. Fixed the ghost and went 118 mph. I also tried a 413 from ta and it sounded great,pulled hard to 5500 but just could not get that top end till I tried my own custom grind and wow. Gotta get that cam looked at and distributor. Chris

 

Thanks. The cam is fine. 5500 is as high as I want to rev it.

It noses over with an MSD trigger distributor too.

I've changed literally every part of this engine and systems as it sits in the car: distributor, coil, MSD box, rerouted the wires so I'm not using my wiring harness, fuel pump, regulator, carb, cap and rotor, wires were all checked and are way within ohm specs, haven't changed the plugs during all of this and I will do that tomorrow, removed the exhaust. The only thing I haven't swapped out is the trans and converter.

There isn't anything else I can think of. I'll change whatever anyone can think of. I haven't done a voltage drop test, but I don't know how I'd check that driving down the road. So I guess I'll wait until I swap the trans, and if need be after that I'll put it on the chassis dyno and check the voltage at 5000 as it is nosing over on the dyno. I won't spend the money on the dyno until after i swap the trans. As I mentioned before, the trans swap will cost me about $60 for trans fluid. If that fixes it then I'll have saved quite a bit from not putting it on the chassis dyno.

 

The lifters are are Crane lifters. I run Chevy lifters because they are more plentiful and there are more choices. I suppose it could be the lifters, but I don't see it.

I've swapped valve springs too, and the dyno guy checked the open and closed pressures and they are all within spec, as are the valve tip heights.

I know a dyno isn't real world, but if it revs on the dyno it should rev in the car.

The only difference between the dyno and the car are: dyno shop fuel pump and MSD and there isn't my trans attached but a dyno instead.

Changed the MSD and the fuel pump shows 6 pounds at WOT, which is what the dyno had.

 

Yardley, I feel your pain! I had much more hair before I pulled it all out trying to make my GS go faster. I just had to put it up for the winter and say to heck with it!! Don't know what was weaker, my nerves or wallet. The car is the fastest it's ever been but still not what it should be.
Good luck with it and keep up the hard work because spring is coming.

 

Have you tried a mechanical fuel pump? I've heard these are good pumps--->http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/buick550.html If it was my car I install one of those and completely bypass the electric fuel pump just to see what it did.

 

Why in Gods name would you run chevy lifters. Possible the issue. The bleed down rate on chevy is diffferent from buick. So is the oil feed hole location on most. I have the correct lifters for a buick. I buy over 200 at a time for engines I build and sell. Bet your losing .020 lift at high rpms and they wont keep up. If your lifters have a spring lock in them who knows what you have. I have a race to 6000 rpm and my full competion lifters that willl run 7500 rpms have a rolled over edge to hold the guts in and are not to be taken apart.Chris

 

Besides a lifter issue, the other thing I was thinking of was to take 4* of cam timing out. 6 advanced along with a B4B in a heavy car seems like a combo that's destined to run out of steam. Never mind the cold vs hot thing for a moment. When you put the SP1 on, you made positive gains. For a timing cover gasket set and some fluids, it may be worth a shot.

When you eventually do fix the problem, you can invent your own theory as to why it happened. In other words, don't totally rule anything out.

Rememeber, it's gotta be something, and it's ALWAYS the last thing you check!

 

Then why would that problem not show up on the dyno?

 

my only guess would be the oil did not get as warm on the dyno as it does in the car.

 

No. I run 180* in the car and it ran at 180* on the dyno.

Jim Weise and Mike T both say Chevy lifters are fine. I began running them years ago when Buick lifters were in short supply and the ones that we DID get were horrible.

I'm telling you now, I believe it is a transmission issue.

 

I'm still betting the cam itself is goofy. Too many people have stories like this with the 413 cam.

http://www.v8buick.com/showpost.php?p=1731748&postcount=28

 

Good luck on your quest. Sounds like a very simple fix .

 

180 oil temp?

 

The water on the dyno is pre-heated. The engine is running for quite some time with 180* water, so the oil is at what we would all consider "operating temperature". Same goes for the car.

 

I had no problems on the dyno and I have no problems until the engine gets hot.

Now, I decided to streamline things a bit yesterday. So I took out the trans cooler and went straight into the radiator. I also changed the trans fluid because it smelled pretty burnt.

It really isn't shifting well now on the 1-2 shift at 5000 or higher and the new fluid smells pretty bad as well.

We'll know more in about 2 weeks after the tranny change.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't do it at the top of 2nd gear, only 1st. Of course getting to the top of 1st gear isn't the same as getting to the top of 2nd gear. So we'll see.