Check out this guy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969...7QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10076QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Think someone's garage is going to give birth to a new 1969 GTO soon? o No:
I don't have any problem with somebody building a clone, as long as they disclose it (I would say to everyone, but at least to potential buyers). Obviously, that doesn't always happen. As I write this I cannot decide what part of the original car should be retained to make a repaired or reconstructed car 'authentic'. Maybe the cowl? Probably not. The frame? No, they rot away and should be replaceable. Any other part of the body? What if it was involved in a rollover or something and everything got damaged? I would hope the seller would be honest, but after time as the line of sellers grows, that doesn't happen either. Good question.
It's a crime boys Hey Boys it's a felony if you buy these and put them back on a car and then try to sell it.
What if someone takes the cowl froma car he owns and then takes every thing else from a donor car and puts it together . Does it depend on the order in which he does it ? So I take the cowl section on the frame of my car , then weld in patch panels , donor roof , quarters , full floors , donor fenders and doors . Then replace the frame with an unrusted one . Can I call it a GS or is it a home built replica > Whats the diff if you own the 2 cars and just weld in your cowl section ? Seems like the difference is when you drill out or cut out the numbers . I know for a fact that a bunch of high value cars are being done this way . Is it just up to the courts on a given day or is there a real difinative answer to this .
I wish the law would read like....Vin and data tags should not be switched on any vehicle other than a vehicle that is historical in nature and to provide for it's repair and preservation. I wish the law would consider the historical status of vintage cars.
What a dufus.......... He's been told it's wrong to list these things, and he STILL does it anyway? What a dufus! ou:
Hemmings has had an ongoing article about this. Check #34 7/06, #37 10/06 & #38 11/06. Has to do specifically with a couple of MoPars, but will go along with others. It is going to get VERY Interesting, especially now with Camaros, MGBs & older Chevy Pick Ups. Dynacorn is doing Bodies for the Camaro & Truck Cabs for 1st Gen 55 & Back Chevy/GMC P/Us. Someone did the MGBs a few Years ago. (everyone has their Poison) People have been restamping Blocks for YEARS. TRUST ME, it hasn't been for "Authenticity", when the difference between Matching Numbers VS NOM, can be 40% Value of the sale price. "Well I want to Show the Type of work I can Do" (A lot of Talented people out there :TU: I wish I was) But, What is a Restoration VS Recreation? What is the Line between Restoration, and Deception, and where does it cut or Bend? I see A LOT of Bending with Appraisals, Some try for 90*+. Where does the line Break? "This is MY Restoration!" Of course, I had to put a New Frame under it due to structural rot. It has another Shell, because the "Original" was Hit so hard in the back, it bent the "A" Pillar. I had to put in a "Correct' Engine & Transmission from a later car as the old were Toast. The Front Sheetmetal is NEW Replacement, and the Suspension is ALL NEW. "I have REPLACED EVERYTHING!" Er, AH, What is there "Original" to this car? Well, It has the Original VIN & DATA Tag!! ou: SO, we have the Original "Cells" of the VIN & DATA Tags? Everything ELSE is a Replacement? CLONE!!!!!! JR
Bingo- It's wrong wrong wrong. Can't buy or sell them to use on a vehicle, eventhough enforcement of it may be lax or lacking, it doesn't make it OK. :rant: Me neither, I personally belive clones let the sport live on. I would hate to have to teach my daughter about SS's and GSX's via internet, car museums, or the once a year you see one roll down the road. But a clone or tribute car resembles the desired car in looks and maybe performance as well NOT VIN NUMBERS! When you change the VIN's you are commiting a crime regardless if you disclose it or not. Cars that have multiple VIN tags that don't match go to car jail and eventually the crusher..... as well they should :rant: . When you re-stamp engine numbers = CRIMINAL You are passing something off as genuine when it is not. FRAUD REGARDLESS OF INFORMING BUYERS OR OTHERS :af: You can't go commit a crime and claim it was OK because you told people about it, before or after the act.
Clone Sold Today, and represented as such is Fine. The Problem is when the car changes hands, and it becomes like the "Telephone Game." "Mary Had a Little Lamb", can become " Mary go caught with her hand in the Cookie Jar, and is NOW on the Lamb from the Feds!!" Either by Ignorance, OR Deceptive Practices, down the line, car will/can be Misrepresented. Ignorant Buyers, Deceptive Sellers. There are MORE 65-6 Mustangs with the Pony Interiors than were ever Built. There is 1 Cobra, that is NOW, 2-3 due to "Restoration" of a wrecked Racing Car. I am sure that the Shelby Registration has found some Mustangs that are either Blank, or have different #s under the Shelby VIN Tag in the Left Inner fender, and may have been passed off, or tried to be, and someone has just purchased it as an original. Removal of VIN & DATA Tags for sale or Transfer I believe IS illegal in ALL 50 States. (Not a Legal Wizard, but making an assumption) JR
Swapping Tags is illegal and sooner or later someone is gonna find out, the "chain of title" will lead them right back to you. So at best it's a very risky practice with potential jail time attached. :moonu: No Thanks!
4 years ago I bought a 75 LeSabre Convertible for parts. It had a non-rebuildable title when I bought and I knew that. It was fully disclosed. It had been rear-ended, with minimal damage, but I think the insurance company saw a way to get a old car off the road. I searched the net for ways to get a new VIN for this car and short of replacing the VIN plate from another, there was nothing I could do. After I got the car home, I thought it was too good to part out. So for 3 years I made calls to the Florida DMV talking to different people about how I could get this car back on the road. The consensus was that I could re-title the vehicle as an "Assembled From Parts" vehicle and the state would assign a new VIN and remove the original. The new vin would be placed in the door jam and the title would not say a 75 Lesabre any more, it would say a AFP (Assembled From Parts) What did "major components" include? From what I remember, Frame, body, cowl. The car just wasn't worth that to me to have a title that didn't say 75 LeSabre and I didn't want a void in the dash where the original VIN was. So it was parted.... The point is, there are legal ways to re-title a car, but who would want to. That leaves the sleeze bags out there who will take the chance on a 40% increase in value to replace the tags and then someone unsuspecting ends up with the car.
Speaking of legally replaced vin tags...I once owned a 55 Chevy that The State of California had re-tagged. I don't know why it was re-tagged, and it really didn't matter to me. It was a fine car that had no obvious signs of damage and it was a great base for a "hotrod" project.
So lemme ask you this: I've got 2 1970 GS455 VIN cars: - One's driveable and whole and has all the right trim, but so rusted she's barely restorable and she's got a cracked frame. She's my baby, I've had her for 19 years, and she's the car I want restored. - The other's a completely clean rust free shell with a perfect frame and a clean Colorado title, but no engine, transmission, steering column, interior, hood, or much else for that matter. So, I figure that between the two of them, using trim and drivetrain from one, and rust free body parts from the other, I've got a whole car. My question is this: Which VIN tag should I use? - Freed
Thats an easy one...use the vin and clean body or in worse case, the vin thats attached to the firewall used to tie your project together with.
I understand having a strong sentimental attachment to your car "baby". But cars do wear out and sometimes it better to salvage what you can and start over with a new "sweetheart". :TU:
Freed, I think you should use the clean shell and transplant the good running gear over to it. I didn't understand why you would be swapping the firewall though if they are both 455 VIN'ed cars. Also check into your state law. I know of an obscure Washington law that requires any change in the engine block in a registered car to be reported to the department of motor vehicles with the new engine serial numbers. (not that anyone does) Jim
I promised myself I'd restore that car I've had since 89, and I fully intend to do so. But if I reshell it and put a different frame under it, it isn't really my car anymore, is it? Which is where I guess I start to get overly philosophical - where is the identity of my car then? What piece is the heart of the car that is unique to it? The answer's the VIN tag and the options it was built with. Since I can't legally swap VINs, I can legally swap over a firewall containing a cowl tag, then I'll have a new rust free body on my car to build out with the same options it originally had. Ethically I have no problem with that, and I think most people would agree. Admittedly I could patch the original body, but that would cost several times as much in terms of labor, and it wouldn't be as strong either. Now I think where most people would start to have issues if I decided to sell that hacked out firewall with a vin tag and clean Colorado title. I don't intend to do that, but even if I did, it wouldn't be criminal to do so, just unethical. The criminal would be the guy that bought it and used it to re-VIN his car. I guess it's a fine line, but I don't feel like my plans will cross it. The factory block was replaced under warranty in my baby by the original owner, so it is a true 70 GS block, but the numbers don't match. Since it was a warranty deal I don't have a problem with that, and its originality isn't diminished much by that in my eyes. The numbers on the tranny match, in any case. Oh, and as far as the numbers on the block go, Kansas has a law like that too, but if I zero-decked the block on a rebuild, they'd be gone anyway. - Freed
Transfer all the good stuff to the Colorado car, leave it's VIN tag alone, and accept the fact that the car you've loved for 19 years is a goner. If you want a souvenir from your old car, cut out the VIN tag and/or data plate and frame or mount them with pictures of her then and now, but don't transfer them to the Colorado car. You have no intent to defraud, but the next owner might not be so honest. Don't give him the opportunity. Sure, they're both 70 GS 455 VINs, and neither car is numbers matching, so which VIN tag you use might not make much difference in the car's value, but the Colorado car deserves the VIN Buick gave it, and it might prevent problems in the future. Just my $.02.
