Questions on concours for 70 GSX

Well, the car finally got to Bowling Green this year and now that I have a judging sheet I need to correct a few things for the GSX Reunion. However, although some are obvious, some of them I am unsure of so here goes: 1) incorrect oil pressure sending unit. This is a new original style unit, the cannister style, yellow zinc plated as it came, so what is incorrect? 2) Wrong color control arm bushings. It was posted in another thread that these chassis were put together and then painted black. Although I did not do it this way, I did paint most everything black, including the bushings. How can they be any other color? And do I need to change it? 3) Wrong horn bolts. Huh? This was an 84,000 mile original car and I completely documented everything as I took it apart and put everything back where it came from. I agree that these could have been changed at some point in the cars lifetime but they are original bolts and do not look out of place. Can anyone tell me exactly what bolts are used for the horns, and what color/plating they should be? Perhaps a star washer added? 4) Headlight housings painted black. Ok, again, as I was instructed in another thread, I painted them semi-gloss black on the backside and body color on the front with body color overspray on the black. Why is this wrong now? And if I need to change it, how are they supposed to be painted? 5) Radiator too glossy. Ok, it's supposed to be gloss black from what I have learned. I have always painted them with single stage urethane and I admit they undoubtedly look better than the factory but who decides what is "too glossy"? Should I change it? And lastly 6) This is where I'd like to vent a little. With the car having the benefit of the original paint on it, I took dozens of measurements and dozens of pictures and I put the stripes back on the car they way they were put on at the factory, although they are considerably straighter than they were. Since these stripes were put on with a stencil at the factory, it would be my guess that between the 678 GSX cars built in 1970, and given that they were built in a much bigger hurry than this one, that there could quite possibly have been 678 different locations for the stripes. I don't plan to change them but I would like to have an answer or at least an opinion as to why I lost a point for it. I know this is long winded so thanks in advance for taking the time to read it.

Bill

 

Member Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: PA
Posts: 3,806



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys,
I figured I would throw another log on the fire, regarding how the chassis was originally painted.

Below is a page from a 1972 Buick assembly manual. This same page was used in all the 68-72 chassis manuals, with the only difference being the date the drawing was first used. (It was updated each year.) The first usage I have for this page is 1967.

Now, this page is generally missing from most of the assembly manuals that are currently on the market, but as many of you know I have multiple versions for each year, and some of these have this page.

I don't know if this page has it, but all the other pages state "Paint Items Indicated Buick Spec. 301." which I believe is their code for Black paint.

To me, this page indicates that everything called out, including the F&R springs, control arms, swaybars, front suspension pieces, rear axle, etc. would all be painted the exact same color/gloss of black. The only exception that I see is for the outer facing surfaces of the brake drums/rotors. They would have used hi-temp paint for obvious reasons, and are called out on another page.

Now, I figure this will answer all questions regarding chassis painting, especially the note that reads "Rear Axle Housing-Complete". Enjoy.
Duane
Attached Thumbnails

__________________
Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors, Website address
www.classiccarinteriors.com



This was taken from a previous thread. The way I understand this, the chassis was assembled and painted black, so the control arms would have also been installed when it was painted, hence the black control arm bushings.

Bill

 

Jason,
I think we should talk to you about becoming a Concours Judge.

Bill
As to the questions, the first thing I want to say is I have not seen the car so I can only answer this from your post. The second thing is if you have not had the car since day 1 how can you honestly swear that everything is original?

Now with that being said, and using Jason's answers as a basis;

The oil pressure sender I believe should be black. Jason is correct, the surest way to get points deducted from a Concours class car is to use NOS parts as your guide. They are REPLACEMENT parts and often are different then what was originally installed on the cars.

The arms were probably stamped and painted in one area. Then someone installed the bushings, then assembed on the chassis, So the bushing should be unpainted. I believe Jason is also correct, although I don't know that I personally would have deducted anything for that.

The horn bolts have a star washer as you suspect. The bolt is unique as the star washer is integral to the bolt. Is the bolt natural or painted. I think its natural. Jason is correct here as well, the horn bolts have an integral star washer. The reason is Buick wanted to make sure they had a good ground for the horns. As to the color, there are some that swear they were painted and some swear they were natural. It depends on who judges the car but for the BPG judging this year, and I will be the deciding factor with this, we would accept either color as correct.

Im not sure on the headlight bezels, but logic would dictate that the factory took a set of chrome bezels and sprayed them white or yellow. So I would think that the backside should be chrome with a bunch of white or yellow overspray. I would think that most of the chrome would be covered in paint. The way you have them looks alot neater though. Jason is almost correct with this, the GSX headlight buckets were not chromed like the regular cars. They were painted black and then painted body color. They had body color oversprayed on the top, that ranged from a light coating to almost complete coverage. I cannot make any further judgement call on this as I have not seen the parts.

The radiator IMO should be more of a flatter black than the low gloss black the support and wheel wells are painted. The radiators were sometimes a little glossier then the core support. We accept them either the same gloss as the support or a little bit glossier. If you painted the rad with urethane then it's probably way too glossy. You yourself admit it looks "...better than the factory but who decides what is "too glossy"?" Well the judges do. We judge the cars to look as they did when they left the factory floor, and we do this to the best of our ability. That is what the class is all about, restoring the car to that level, not trying to make it look better then it did. Concours show cars by definition are not the "showiest" cars on the field. If you vary anything on the car from the way the factory built it, then you are taking a chance of getting a point deduction.

As far as the stripes, maybe they dinked you on not having the stripe mismatch over the rear wheels? Ive seen factory stripes and they were put on very poorly. We do not take points off for not having the factory "flubs" in the stripes. As a matter of fact my 71 GSX was the first one we ever judged that had the flubs installed when restored. The factory did paint the stripes by hand, and I have seen many variations, however without having seen your car I cannot say why they took points off your car.

Now I am not trying to piss anyone off here, but if you ask my opinion I will certainly give it, and as many know I rarely sugar coat anything. If you would like to discuss this further please call me @ 610-544-6776 after 7:30 PM EST weeknights or over the weekends. I will be busy both tonight and tomorrow night so the soonest you could reach me this week would be friday night.
Duane

 

Guys,
I figured I would throw another log on the fire, regarding how the chassis was originally painted.

Below is a page from a 1972 Buick assembly manual. This same page was used in all the 68-72 chassis manuals, with the only difference being the date the drawing was first used. (It was updated each year.) The first usage I have for this page is 1967.

Now, this page is generally missing from most of the assembly manuals that are currently on the market, but as many of you know I have multiple versions for each year, and some of these have this page.

I don't know if this page has it, but all the other pages state "Paint Items Indicated Buick Spec. 301." which I believe is their code for Black paint.

To me, this page indicates that everything called out, including the F&R springs, control arms, swaybars, front suspension pieces, rear axle, etc. would all be painted the exact same color/gloss of black. The only exception that I see is for the outer facing surfaces of the brake drums/rotors. They would have used hi-temp paint for obvious reasons, and are called out on another page.

Now, I figure this will answer all questions regarding chassis painting, especially the note that reads "Rear Axle Housing-Complete". Enjoy.
Duane
Attached Thumbnails

__________________
Duane Heckman, Owner of Classic Car Interiors, Website address
www.classiccarinteriors.com



This was taken from a previous thread. The way I understand this, the chassis was assembled and painted black, so the control arms would have also been installed when it was painted, hence the black control arm bushings.


Bill,
I believe the chassis parts/frame were painted black before assembly and then Buick went around and "touched up" the paint on the parts once installed. At least that is the way I understood that page from the assembly manual. You have to remember that all these pieces came into the final assembly plants as "sub-assemblies", so they probably got chipped up before installation.
Duane

PS. Common sense question here.............. Have you ever seen any paint on the rubber ends of an original control arm bushing? I never have. And if they were painted from the factory don't you think they would have stuck to the new paint on the frame, making it tougher to align?

 

Actually, I don't have the rubber ends painted, only the bushing shells. I masked them off specifially to make them easier to install, but I painted the shells black along with the control arms because I thought all this stuff was supposed to be black. I'm not going to remove them at this point, but do you think I should masked them and paint the bushing shells grey? I value your opinion Duane, that's why I am asking. Thanks.

Bill

 

Any idea where I might get the correct horn bolts? I looked at my pictures and these were not on the car before I started on it so I know I don't have them.

Bill

 

Horn bolts with star washers....

I think I can send you a couple OEM ones but they most definitely will need cleaned and detailed. I am finally going out to my garage and can grab a set. Since my car is a resto car and has fiberglass fenders,Concours if the farthest thing from my mind. The bolts are from my 70 Flint built 68,000 mile car and I know they are correct for that. I will just swap some other bolts and can drop them in a padded mailer if you pm me an address.

Anything to help a GSX out...

 

I have taken a bunch of horns off cars. Some of the bolts are zinc/grayish and some look black maybe painted? All the junkyard cars I see with harrison radiators have a bit of a shine to them. The core supports and inner wheel wells have some shine as well but not as much as the radiator. I think peopel use black that is way to flat under the hood. Everyone restoring cars from all makes does this and over time that is the standard. I may be all wet on this so throw me a towel.

 

"I may be all wet on this so throw me a towel."
I don't know Dave, I always thought you were wet.:laugh:

Bill,
You could paint the bushing shells grey if you want, but it seems like it would be a pain in the a** to do once the car is assembled. For all I know they are black on my car, but 1 point won't make any difference on my car's score so I am not going to worry about it. If you think it will make a difference on your score go ahead.
Duane

PS. One of the topics I plan on discussing at friday's Resto Clinic is sub-assemblies. Once everyone realizes how the parts arrived at the final assembly plants they will get a better understanding of how the parts were plated/painted on the finished cars.

 

Duane.

Are you absolutely sure on this? I remember years back, Kelly Hartman (RIP) got a rock chip on one headlight door on his white GSX (he bought the car new, and it was a 26,000 mile car in original paint). In the chip (between the bulbs) could clearly be seen a layer of black paint beneath the white. It was chrome under the two layers of paint. The doors on my X are chrome under two layers of paint as well, although I didn't buy the car until 1984. So mine might not be the best example.

 

Jim,
I did not mean to say they were not chromed, what I meant to say was they were not chromed like the regular cars. My understanding is that the chroming was different, ie either they were not buffed/finished like the regular cars or they had some type of prep done to them to make the paint stick better.

Sorry for the mis-understanding, my fault.
Duane

 

Jason,
Thank you very much for your input. It is very helpful.

I'd like to thank everyone else as well. Where would we be without these boards and the wonderful people who participate in the interest of helping others. Every visit I make to the boards I learn something new.

Pat,
I sent you a PM with my address for the horn bolts. Thanks again, and please let me know what the charges are.

Duane,
You're absoluely right, it would be a big pain in the a** to mask and paint the bushings so I am going to leave them alone. After all, it is in that gray area where I may or may not lose a point for it. I will repaint the radiator, though. The car did 386 points at BG and between the help I have received here and correcting the other items that were obvious to me I believe the car can certainly afford to lose a point here or there as the judges see fit.

This is my first Buick GSX restoration. I mostly do GTO's and have been amazed at how many things are different on those cars than on the Buicks, but research is part of the job. Besides, it's fun to learn about it.

Thanks again everyone. Now I've got to get busy and get this car ready for the GSX Reunion.

Bill

PS: The car belongs to Mike Rehberg in Sharon, WI. Numbers matching yellow Stage 1, 4 speed with A/C. Look for it in Columbus and feel free to give me an opinion, good or bad, I can take it

 

Thnaks for the towel Duane. Finally hot enough here to take a swim............You know what you call bushings that are not painted. Rusty. I wish I painted mine. Maybe I will while arms are still out. Probably not worth not painting them for one show where they would notice or care. I would not be too happy if a judge pulled up my fender skirts(watch it wise guys) and looked for paint on my bushings.:laugh: He may get a slap.

 

How would you describe your finish on the stripes?

 

Hi Jim,

I would describe the black on the side stripes as about a 70% gloss and the red is flattened just enough to take the edge off the gloss. The point was deducted for "side location incorrect". I have no idea what they meant by that but I'm not going to change anything about the stripes. As far as I am concerned the original location is good enough for me. We all know how these cars were built at the factory and I have my doubts if any two cars had the stripes in the exact same location. I have a friend with a `70 RAIV Judge with 4,000 original miles and this car is one of the worst examples of factory workmanship I've ever seen. Paint is ugly, stripes are crooked, etc., but as they say, it's original.

Bill

 

I was just trying to ferret whether they may have been concerned over the finish. So many finish the black side stripes and hood finish with gloss. I would describe these as matt for lack of a better word. Also you often see the arc on the front fenders misreproduced.

I think an issue is caused by waxing over the years causing some to think that their stripes were originally gloss.

We have discussed this before:

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=110716&highlight=flatner+gsx

Here are some pics with Ken's one family GSX. Note the side stripe finish.

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=23792&page=2&highlight=gsx+flatner

 

Looks just right. My placement by the door handle is just like the originals in these pictures. I would guess my black on the sides to be just a bit flatter than these but not much, and like I said, the red is just slightly glossy. I used Dupont Hot Hues Hot Rod Black on the hood, which is flatter than the stripes on the sides. The Hot Rod Black is a urethane so it should tolerate the UV rays a little better than the Acrylic enamel I put on the sides, although the car won't be spending much time outside. I have instructed the owner not to wax or polish the stripes or hood but I gave him some Dupont Final Klean to wipe it off with if he ever gets any on them and told him to do it immediately if that happens. So far, so good.

Years ago I did a `69 375hp Chevelle for a guy and one day he had the hood open and the radiator support was pretty shiney. I thought 'what the h***?' Then I saw some wax that he forgot to wipe off. I said "Darn it Joe, you're messing up my work". We tried to clean it off with some Prep-sol but to this day it's still pretty shiney. Some of these people just don't have a clue how to take care of these cars.

Bill